SNM269 Craft Beer, Business or Pleasure with Craig Thorn

Jonathan Green: After beer. Business or pleasure. Today's special guest, Craig Thorne. Today's episode is brought to you by book arbitrage prop prop If you wanna start the ultimate side hustle, I can't recommend book flipping enough. Used books are continually going up in value If you wanna learn how to flip books and make 6 and even 7 figures, please join our free training at servenomaster.com forward slash Announcer: Are you tired of dealing with your boss? Do you feel underpaid and under appreciated?

If you want to make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to Serve No Master podcast. Where you'll learn how to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep. Presented live from a tropical island in the South Pacific by best selling author, Jonathan Green. Now here's your host. Jonathan Green: Now I'm always interested in different business models because there's just all so many ways to launch a business now.

You can turn your passion into a business. I have known some crap brewers where I live here in Asia who are trying to figure it out. And, usually, I'm around when they're turning their extra yeast into bread. It's like having a bread underneath all the extra parts. So it's very interesting to me. There's things you can do. How did you first get interested in this kind of business model? Go from a consumer to going, I'm gonna make my own.

Craig Thorn: I actually don't just to qualify, I don't make beer. I have a beer podcast, which is the set. So it's sort of like I guess I'm on the outside. Of the beer industry. And far enough, after doing the podcast for so long, I always thought it'd be cool to get involved in beer in some way. Definitely not for me. I like talking to the people and hearing about it, but Yeah. We just started. We did I did this silly thing.

I moved from Australia, I moved to Canada in 20 10, and the first winter, my friends in Australia were doing this thing called 365 days of beer, and you had to, like, take a selfie photo with beer and had to be different beers for a year. It could be multiple per day, whatever.

And you would basically post it on Facebook online, wherever it was, and the document, and I didn't think that many BSE would existed, and it's definitely gonna fail, but why not give it a crack? So we did it, and my roommate at the time joined me. And we did it in about 7 months. I was like, okay. Cool. I enjoyed it, learning about beer. I drank beer, obviously, at home and whatever, but not anything serious.

And it just took me on this sort of journey, which ended up in a podcast study. My girlfriend suggested it. When I was looking for craft beer podcasts, it was nothing that spoke to me. So it's like, why don't we start 1? So we did didn't mean for it to become anything that has become a nice little side hustle to our other things that so we're doing and it's become not cool.

We've got a nonprofit in beer now, and it's coming up on 8 years for the pod, which is so we're 1 of the first in Canada. So it's been really cool just learning about the industry and meeting so many cool people that work in beer is a fascinating instrument. Jonathan Green: Okay. So let's talk about your journey of filtering a passion into podcast because most people give up on their podcast in the first 6 episodes or 4 episodes.

So even making it to number 10 is like a feat in this industry. And There are a lot of ups and downs. So let's talk about that journey because I'm very interested in a passion based podcast. It's My best friend from college just brought 1 up the other day. He's launched a podcast with his favorite soccer team, and it's a it can be a really hard journey. I always look at projects from the am I gonna turn this into a business first?

Whereas when you get into it by passion, then you're like, how can I turn this passion into a business? It's a very different process and conversation. So what was your process? Like, it sounds like you started Passion First. And then at what point did you go, how can I make money from this, or how can I build a revenue from this, or how can I make this self sustaining? Craig Thorn: It's a great question. I hadn't really thought of it like that.

So when I move so I do there's a bunch of things I'm doing, but I do music. My brother and I've been doing music for, like, about 20 years now, and we had a a small distribution deal in the state. So that's what prompted us to move to Canada permanently. And music was my main thing it wasn't sustaining our lifestyle, so I had to work a job because it's, like, point 00001 percent of musicians actually can live off it.

Might be exaggerating a bit, but it's not that far off. So we're following music, and music is very stressful because of the sheer volume of musicians, the competition, what it takes actually get to the next level is so difficult and so all encompassing that I was relishing in a hobby and something that I could be creative and that I didn't care if it worked or not. This is the first thing I did that I didn't care if it worked.

So I was learning about beer, and we just I guess we're just having fun with it. And I because it was fulfilling a need for me who was speaking to my you know, at the time I started, it must have been, like, early to mid thirties.

And the fact that there was there's probably other people like me around similar age group who the they were typically probably at least 10 years older than me that were doing these podcasts, and they were just so bland and very and jargon and science and stuff. And it was just not, like, talking to the average person, which I certainly am in beer. I'm not educated in haven't necessarily worked in it aside from the pod. So it was cool just being a side project.

And then when brewery started to reach out and they wanted to be on it, we're like, This is interesting and unexpected. So we actually had a choice. The name of the podcast has a cuss word in it because it was that casual for me. And we were cussing a lot on the podcast because it was just like 2 friends talking. And then when breweries started to become involved, 1 of them mentioned they were a bit concerned. About the language.

So we were like, we had 2 choices. We could rebrand and clean it up, or we could keep it going and don't care. We obviously chose former. I had a cohost at the time. He dropped off and wanted to move into his sort of, you know, had family and everything. But the offices kind of came. It was just completely unintentional. People just reached out started with PR packs, but we used the same beer. And they want videos or photos on Instagram or whatever.

Of them will wanna be on the podcast so we have interviews with people. Then it's like getting sponsors reach out, want to offer to pay for an advertising slot. And it just kind of, like, completely, organically went from there. Like, we've never proactively pursued any money for the podcast, but it's, you know, it just kept The office kept coming, and I imagine it's because we're putting out good work consistently. That was 1 of the main thing, like you mentioned earlier, about a podcast drop off.

I'm a stubborn OCD area, so I just, like, I keep going with things. So it's always been what I do. And if I enjoyed it, Like, it doesn't really bother me. I would just keep going. And if it's not gonna work, we'll figure out how for it to work, but it didn't matter to me that it worked. So the business stuff came I did and as it became, I guess, more serious, then we took it more serious.

We put more money into it as far as upgrading equipment and to buy them portable microphones, we used to only do it on premise. So we actually go to the breweries previous to the last 2 years. So now we do it all virtual, which I much prefer, to be honest. But, yeah, it was not there wasn't any, like, master plan or we didn't have any plans whatsoever. We're just letting it come and it's become a nice little side revenue stream.

I run a social media agency full time. That's our main thing. But English is all encompassing because of the podcast, we then got brewery clients for our agency. And the music, my song is the theme song to the podcast, and then the people who follow the podcast are very supportive of my music. So it's just massively ecosystem that we've created unintentionally with all the projects together.

Jonathan Green: So how long into the journey was the moment you had to make that decision about, is this gonna stay Or is this gonna become something a little more serious and do the name change? How long into the time frame was that? Less than a year. It was pretty quick. Surprisingly. Because I didn't think it was anything special. It was cool. I think it was because we were so early. I think part of it was luck and timing early in the game.

We were just early. There wasn't many people competing with us. And a lot of the older gatekeepers in the scene like the previous to podcast, the main thing was beer writers. They would write for newspapers, and they'd write book. No. That type of stuff. They were, like, clowning us. They thought it was stupid. And now, obviously, we're 1 of them are podcast. So it was I think we were just ahead of the game. You know? Fortunate.

And you said you had a partner, and then the partner left. There's often a time, especially with partnerships where you want 2 levels of serious Right? Like, you just if 1 of you just wants a hobby and then wants to be busy, that's when it can be like because once there's money involved, right, it's like you can't miss episodes. You have like, you're constantly trying to perform at a higher level. So that does turn it. Right? Transition it.

There's that moment where you transition from hobby into something more, whether it's going just in the side hustle or whether it's going into full time business. And that's that can be that can put a lot of pressure on relationships. Same thing through a few of my like, 1 of my friends when I go by these younger brothers in a really famous band, and that band's been through tons of changes of members of the band, and you see it happen there.

Like, every time the new album comes out or there's, like, something big, people move around. So It's the same in business. When I've tried to bring friends into my life to work with me, it's always been very stressful. Usually, it doesn't work out because you have 2 different mindsets. Right? Like, it's hard to find 2 people with parody, especially when you're the boss. Right? It's hard to have 2 bosses, 2 captains of the ship.

So as you went through the transition, now it's been the majority of the time has been where you're the solo star of the show and choosing the direction do you ever think about, oh, I wish there was still another person here, or is it nice to have it be just your vision? Craig Thorn: That's a really good question. So the interesting part that I guess I left out my partner, Tiffany, my girlfriend, we've been together for coming up on 12 years.

So she's involved in everything I do. So all the businesses it's all us together. She's a she's incredible. So for the podcast, it was her idea for me to do to start listening to them, and it was her idea for me to start the podcast, and then I contacted my friend Scott to be the cohost because he did he was the 1 who did the photos and stuff with the reviews. So it was always my vision. I was I had the equipment over here.

I got my music studio. So that's what we used before we got portable equipment. Lived in Montreal, Canada at the time, and he was in Toronto. So we'd travel a bunch to do them, and we batch the con the podcast and all the content because I had the equipment. So I was always the 1 It was my the name of my old blog, so that came across.

It was like it was almost like he was never the captain of the ship, so to speak, and he was I don't know. Wanna say under that, but he was just, like it was, like, he was, like, the comic relief. He was really he's a really funny guy. Like, he's 1 of my closest friends. I talked to him and came over the other weekend. Like, we're very close still. It was just like, he's a chill dude. He's a not like sounds like you're a serial entrepreneur.

You've got a lot of things going on. He's, you know, works for work gonna work for a job doesn't have any sort of side hustle. It just wants to chill and go to the cottage and stuff like that. So I think it's just we want different things out of life. So it was always my vision along with my partner's vision, and he didn't really suggest a lot. I was just telling him what's going on.

Maybe he'd come up fun ideas for little videos, but aside from that, it wasn't a lot. So I didn't feel like we I was, like, all of a sudden left out, and I'm like, oh, now it's just me. So that kind of worked out pretty well.

And then now my partner and I have been able to maybe approach it in a much more business sense because we know there would be no, like, maybe he wouldn't be able to make something or he just couldn't be bothered doing some things that might have might have need to do to take it further on the business. So there you are right that there are a lot of changes I've worked with friends in the past and it never worked out.

The only thing that's ever worked out for me is working with my partner. Surprisingly because that's typically not the 1 that does work out for people. You know? Jonathan Green: Yeah. A lot of people, especially when started as entrepreneurs, feel like they need a partner because then it's not as scary. So first, you come up with the mindset of, oh, I only have to do half the work. But then after a certain amount of time, you go, oh, I only get to keep half the money.

Right? Like, you switch from thinking about 1 thing to the other, and that's why. Like, even I haven't done this for a long time, and I had to start it off that way. I thought I needed a partner, terrible mistake. We're, like, such a nightmare for a year of my life.

I'll never get back But then I'm glad I learned the lesson early because in my industry, in the straight you know, marketing industry, of all the people that were partners when I started 12 years ago, only ones in partners are still together. All of the other ones have just split parted ways because so often we for partnerships with people that have the same skills with us.

Like, 2 marketers get together or 2 people that are really good at Facebook get together as opposed to what you really need is 2 people that are mostly different. For to have that good Venn diagram. At least that's what I've seen because all the time, it's like, oh, we can both do this. Well, then it you get into that. Well, who should be doing what? You to fight over the division of labor since you can both do it.

Whereas as you both have a couple of different skill sets, there's not as much of that. Well, you know who's gonna do which thing. So it's really interesting. I always love to hear about that because very few partnerships last and always does this. Or when the partnership ends, you stay friends. That's the first time I've ever heard that. Is for me when I try to work with the front end. We don't work together anymore. We don't talk anymore.

I think it creates this huge barrier, especially if it's a company you founded and someone coming in. He goes, well, isn't like you work? It's like, oh, it doesn't like you're working as hard as me. Well, yeah, because you can't see what like, you don't know what the boss is doing, and it's always different. Like, most what I do is strategic and planning, and that's what really drives the company. But it can be so hard for other people to see that.

And working on multi projects with your partner. That's very interesting to me because my wife couldn't care less about my job. She's not a hundred percent sure of what I do. Every once in a year, what do you think my job is? And she's like, I don't know. The computer just gives you money because you're nice to it. And I was like, that sounds like a much better job than the 1 I have. And it's like, That's awesome.

I, yeah, I always thought that, oh, I would love to have someone where I could talk about work when I'm after work, but it's the opposite. When I stop working, I'm not working. There's a really good barrier between my personal professional life, which is nice. I actually appreciate that. It was turned out that's what I wanted. But what is it like when everything you do is mingled because I used to live with people that I worked with.

And at the end of the work, damn, like, I have nothing to talk to you guys about. I gotta go somewhere else. Right. Because you are you, like, hey. Remember what happened? Yeah. I was there. Remember when this happened? I was there. And it's so you can have nothing. It's not interesting. Right? And my roommates at the time thought I was, like, a real jerk. I was like, guys, I'm with you 10 hours a day.

When I go to the pub, I just wanna talk to someone who I wasn't there. It's not about you. It's about anyone I work with. And they loved hanging out with each other, and I could never understand that. So how do you find it affects your relationship that there is this mingling Like, are you guys able to create a time when you're like, oh, we don't talk about work at dinner. We don't talk about work here and here, or is it constantly coming back and forth?

Craig Thorn: That's fascinating, man. Like, this is you have some really cool perspectives on all this. It's awesome for us. Like, we love it. We talk about work all the time, and we don't care. It's I think it's a rare situation just like you were saying, look at the partners that sort of work out. Like, it's rare that I'm still friends with, my friend, Scott, but that was it's I I think for him, it was never a business, and there was never that serious buy in.

It was just like, hey, man. People send us beer for free, and we get to talk crap about it to a camera for a bit. So wicked. And then when it became work, I think he lost interest. I think that's what happened. With my partner, I'm around at 24 7. We live together. When we're in Montreal, all the families in Toronto, we've moved back out close to Toronto now, but we were there for 10 years.

And there was no it took us a while to sub meet people because different language and all stuff. And we're just passionate about everything in a equal way. It wasn't there's not, like, 1 of us. It's just like, oh, can we stop talking about it? We just we vibe off that. Like, that's what gives us energy. You know? Like, even for example, what is it? Monday now, but on Saturday night, we always make sure we used to always work Saturday night just keep doing stuff.

So we had to put boundaries, kind of what you were saying. That was the closest we got. We're like, alright. Let's try and keep some evenings together so we can have some drinks, I want some food, watch some movies, whatever. We find if we're watching a movie, it'll take us 5 hours to watch a hour and a half movie because we keep pausing it and going off on tangents. Like, on and I, we're talking about new ideas.

We're starting on, like, an education like, digital products and educational portion of the agency. And we would have just kept vibing off all these different ideas of, like, oh, yeah. But we could do this now, and it comes into this really engaging energetic conversation that I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't mind talking about work all the time.

It's the I guess, the balance is enough because we we just bought a hell and, you know, it's like when you move, you go to the house. We went from an apartment to a house with so much to do furniture to get, decorating, all of us. So, you know, that's been a cool distraction from the work. Probably not completely good, but at least it's not work related. And it gives us a creative outlet to be like, yeah. What can we do?

Let's search for this furniture and whatever. So it's I always say, like, I feel like we're like a fluke. Like, we're not the norm as far as typically how partners would be with working together and spending 24 hours a day together, figure it all out. It's I don't I really appreciate. I know she does as well. Like, I value it. I would be I feel more it's interesting. I don't know.

The other point I want to touch on, you mentioned before about you and your partner, business partner had to you had the same skill set. And it became clashing. We started with the same skill set too. We were both social media managers. I had a bit more experience and had some a bit older, so I did it in Australia. And coming now, we were both doing it, but it took 2 people to do it.

And maybe 1 person would own this client and the other would support, then she would own this client and I would support her. Now it's almost come I don't really do that much client work anymore. Like, I take on the consult, so I'll do all of those, which is just yapping, really. And I'll do a lot of the admin. I deal with the accountant. I deal with the taxes. And then I deal with managing stuff where she's dealing with client work.

So it's almost like organically split into 2 different things because I got over. I don't how many tweets can you write? Like, I don't really wanna keep doing that. I'm more interested in other things. So I think that's probably the safest way to keep that relationship and keep that business going is that you probably are gonna if you started with the same skill set, you're gonna have to split some point. We'll split it up. Jonathan Green: So you mentioned something very interesting about you guys.

You're sitting outside watching. We'll be having drinks. Now has the way you approach beer change? Because since the Internet is my job, I don't use Internet for pleasure. Like, it's I'm on the computer. It's for work only, and I write non a huge part of my job is I ghost writing on books, and I never read nonfiction. Cool. Because that's my like, it's work. Right? So I wonder, has it changed, like, how you approach beer? Are you, like, when you're out to have, like, pleasure.

Like, oh my god. That's a work drink now that hasn't changed how you approach it because the people that, you know, they drink wine, and now they only spit it out because they just taste it and don't wanna actually drink it, which I I've never understood that. But has that started to happen to you where you're like, or you're just constantly reviewing beers when you go out? Can't stop yourself? Craig Thorn: The latter, but a little bit of the former too.

So, yes, I can't stop myself. Like, I'm at I just hit 7500 unique beers that I've reviewed because I'm it's this what I I don't know if it's OCD. It's what I call it, but this is, like, I have to keep going. I have to just keep it going. And I wanna keep racking up. It's not really about the numbers, but I just wanna keep it going and to a degree is what kept the podcast relevant.

That's really where it all started, so I I feel indebted to it to a degree. But you make such a good point, and say, there was a like, I feel like this year, it's been the slowest time for PR packages. Like, just over here, and I'm out in the basement here, I have a pretty substantial beer seller that mostly is because of packages that are being sent out that they send you way more than any human can drink.

So I've just got this absurd amount of beer some of it is sitting there aging beautifully. It's gonna be great, and some of it are probably dying on the shelf. So it's a bit of a mix. So I was almost more grateful that the PR packages slowed down because there was a work b.

I'd be like, I don't really wanna drink this right but I know I have to shoot this video or I know I have to take a photo of it, and I'm not in the mood, but they've got the it's releasing on Friday, so I have to, you know that usage is just anointment. So now I spend more because there was a time where I didn't really spend much money on me because I got it all sent to me.

I got it all given to me for which was a nice little bonus. This year, I've spent more on beer than I have probably the whole time of doing it because now I drink what I demo, please. Like, for the reason you're talking about it. I just like, you know what? I don't wanna drink this This is what I want. So I got my favorite store here, and I get the stuff from the the spots that I like, and I lean more into that.

And I found that's taken the burden off a bit. So when a PR pack does come, it doesn't feel as worky or as annoying because I'm able to balance that a lot more with things that I want. Whereas before, it might have been 5 or 10 percent of what I drank are things that I wanted. Everything else was things I was, like, indebted to drink. So it's a great point.

But I definitely don't split let's say on the wine thing, I don't spit it out, but I have a very low tolerance for terrible beer. Or things that I don't perceive to be good. So I used to not be into the drain pouring thing, but if I'm not feeling it, they'll get their photos, but I'm not gonna force the calories down my throat if the money to it, which is weird. Jonathan Green: So has your favorite changed? You've tried thousands of beers and thousands and thousands.

Has your favorite changed, or is it the same 1 from the beginning? Like, has that had changed it? And, also, you and your partner are both part of the business. Right? When you guys go has the way you, like, way you both interact with things change. Right? Like, is she drinking beer differently or drinking beer? Or, like, do do you still go out and try lots of different things? Or, like, you would never try a new 1 if it's not a work Right?

Like, it's gotta be 1 I've already tried since I've been tried so many. Craig Thorn: That is sometimes a factor where I'm like, I just could. I don't wanna take a photo. I don't wanna write a review. I'm just gonna get I know I've had it, and then I'm good. This as far as the favorite, it's changed a lot. But I never really had, like, this is my favorite beer.

It was never really a thing But the styles without getting too, like, nerdy into it, like, beer styles have changed a lot, particularly in the last maybe 5 years. There's a whole bunch of them, like, trendy beer styles that very much gravitated towards, and I really enjoyed them. So I sort of drink those a lot more that didn't exist when I got into it in 20 early 20 11. Even previous to that, it was basically I haven't drank with lagers anyway just from different places.

I thought that was fancy because I'd be drinking a, I don't know, Argentinian lago or something like that, which is just macro probably made by Budweiser anyway. So, yeah, it's definitely changed as it's gone because new things have happened in the industry. So I stay up on trends. I like to keep abreast of all that sort of stuff. And when we go out, it depends where we go. I guess, yeah, what and my girlfriend's the same thing. She might also she's probably more aligned.

So on on that well, she has a separate project that I'm not super involved in, but I kind of manage the sponsorships. She has a project where she posts just an Instagram account. No no podcast, but she does wine, spirits, and coffee and a little bit of beer on that. So we were partnering together with tourism officers pre 20 20, and they were sending us all over the place because it'd be, like, all things liquid between the 2 of us.

We only needed 1 room, so it's cheaper. So, you know, like, the visit Colorado Center South for 2 weeks and send us all around state, things like that. So for her for the wine, I feel like she's also been less she's received less PR packs this year and less sponsorship packs. I think it's just hardships coming out of last 2 years for the beverage industry.

But she's also pretty inclined in the same way to just get to her favorite, put an order in online, and then she doesn't to take a photo only if she wants. If there's something special that happens, you'll take the photo and stuff, but both of us have scaled back on that because it took over our lives for so much. And I think it's like burnout. Really.

So it can be definitely a bit of both, but it's always like I'm always almost looking for it if I'm, you know, a Saturday night. I no longer drink full beers throughout the evening. I'll try and pick at least 1 or 2 that I have already had, so I don't have to worry about it. I can just pour it up. Maybe I'll post a story so I'll give the brewery some love even though I bought it. And then I can get on with my evening.

It don't have to be, like, do the selfie, edit the phone, write the review, put me on that nonsense. So it is weird, and it's a strange thing to think. Be exhausted by because most people couldn't even like, you're saying with the wine. Like, I feel like most people couldn't fathom being annoyed by making content about something as, like, cool that everybody a lot of people would participate in, like, beer and wine. It's a strange place to be.

Jonathan Green: I think it's the risk of when you mix you're personal with your professional. When you're doing something you really like, then sometimes the thing you really, like, stops becoming the thing you really like because and most people won't understand it. You're like, no. It's different. I drink 17000 different beers a year. That's it's very different when you get to the highest levels. Even when it's you're getting paid a really big number, it's like, no. You don't understand.

It's just different when you do something all the time. It's why sometimes when people on, like, a really big TV show. And you go, why would you ever leave? You're getting a million dollars episode. It's like, they've been on that show for 9 years. That's a real because you stop being a different character. Like, I saw an interview with the people on Seinfeld because they were the first 1 to get a million dollars in episode.

And Jason Alexander was telling me, he goes, well, the reason we asked for so much money is I realized I would never stop being this George. The show was so popular. Right? And he's when you see him, you still think of that character. Like, he's like, I needed enough money that I might never be able to work again because the character became so dominant. So that's why I think people leave really big shows or really big like, when you wanna be captain America forever.

Like, 10 or 12 years, you tired of it. So I totally understand that. And I think it is something that only people who have merged their passion, their pleasure, certain parts of life have become gotten bigger and bigger to start to realize, well, it's used to be all fun, and now it's mostly business. So I think that is something people who've done something for a long time, it starts to resonate. Right? It's like, people will play basketball. It's my job.

Why would I do it's hard to do it for fun when it's your job. It's the same way I approach writing. Like, I used to blog all the time, and now vlogging is work. If I'm writing a blog post, it's a lot of work because it's part of my job, and writing books is my job. So I do understand that mindset. The thing it's hard to find that balance. And sometimes you go a little too far 1 way or the other.

Like, you're a little too casual about your work or you're a little bit too. It can start. That's where I think burnout can come in. That's 1 of the most dangerous risk especially in a creative endeavor, is that you get tired. It's like, I'm always fascinated by bands that don't wanna play their most popular song, but I've only heard it live once where they've heard it live, like, 400000 times. It's so different being on the other side of the fence.

So I think that's a really good lesson. That's why this is so fascinating to me because it always like, that's why I try to have a big barrier between my personal, professional life, like, between my family and what I do for work simply because of that, because sometimes I just get sick of a project, and I don't want them to be asking about it. That's why, like, I don't understand the people that make their kids social media stars. That really confuses me.

Like, my kids, I never show their pictures online. I don't say their names. Like, they could decide when they're 18 if they wanna do that stuff because I'm you know, I live in the public eye just like you do. Right? There's a part of your life that's public. It's, like, very fascinating to me when people make that decision because it's once it's out there, it's out there forever, and it's it can affect the internal family dynamics.

It's like if I it's like when you I don't wanna lose my job, and then my family is, like, in the middle of it. That's the thing I think about. It's, like, that extra pressure. So it's interesting that you've made it work. You know, it is definitely the exception to the rule. Right? It's, like, which is great. That's very that's why it's such an interesting thing to see how you've navigated those waters.

And the fact that you guys have found parallel projects that you're can travel and she can drink wine and you can drink beer. I'm also fascinated because it's always seemed to be that most people lock in what they drink by the time they're 21 or 22 and don't change. Like, I very rarely try a new drink, and I don't know if everyone is like this, but when I buy a wine, it's basically the picture. Same for a craft beer.

I'm like because, you know, when people like, oh, it's an okay taste and this and that, I can never taste any of that. Like, I know I like a dry white wine, but I don't know exactly what that means. I just know I've tasted different ones. I like dry more than sweet. I hope those are obvious. It's probably I'm wrong, but -- Yeah.

Yeah. -- it's so many people are when so many people are shopping that way, like, how much Do you think how much people do try and experience new things, or is it mostly people at after a certain age they kind of lock in? Craig Thorn: That is we made a whole bunch of good points in Alaska. It's awesome. So as far as that's 1 of the biggest challenges I think of craft beer.

From what I understand, it's about 5 percent of the market in Canada, and I believe about 12 in the US. And it's 1 of the biggest challenges if you see there's the element of, like, locking in. I think that's definitely part of it.

I think that's kind of like an the hour generation or maybe older that do that a little bit more because we're a bit more stuck in our ways, whereas maybe the people who are 18 to 25 right now, the gen setters, they seem a little more fluid and less brand and loyal, but they say, for example, the rise of alcoholic seltzers is which they have that? Is that big in Asia? Well, I don't I have no idea what that is. Amazing. Okay.

So it started in the States. It's basically it looks like fizzy, like, perrier, like, sparkling water. But it's alcoholic and it's usually about 5 percent, so it's nothing too much. They have a hundred calories or 50 calories, probably a hundred actually. I can, and there will be all sorts of different flavors or, like, you know, natural flavoring or whatever. So, like, you know, raspberry, dupe, whatever. Right? But they're not colored or anything. They really picked up in the last year or 2 over here.

And in Montreal, last summer, you walk around the park, you're allowed to drink in pox there. Like, every single bunch of people have, like, a big case of the seltzers and they're drinking it. So that has really chipped away because they could have been drinking in the middle of summer a light lag or something like that that's crushable and you consider it all afternoon.

So I think there's a part that's taken it that's taken it away from being more than the old school kind of brand loyalty because you're a coolest guy, you're a bud guy, you know, whatever it might be, wherever you're at. So the yeah. It's like a really big challenge for the breweries to get new consumers. That's, like, the hardest thing to keep to keep in like, engaging new people.

Because if you look at the brewery world or the Instagram or social media, like, it's preaching to the choir all the time. Like, I don't know if that's converting people. So 1 of the things we did, we have this nonprofit called link up that we started last year. And what it is, it's a we partnered with a brewery in Quebec. And their team. There's 6 of us running it, and the idea is to diversify the craft beer industry.

So more, you know, BIPOC individuals in craft beer because it's cry predominantly why these repeat, which is the joke that we would say, and you go into a brewery that's almost exclusively what it was. Now it's a lot more gender equal, but the diversity inside of tapering very rarely represents what you would see soon as you walk out the doors on the street. So if you think about it, the only way for a business to grow is for everybody.

Like, beer is for everyone who has enough. It doesn't matter where you're from. The interesting thing about that is that's I think that's actually a powerful The reason we started it is my partner is Jamaican origin. 1 of the other partners is a patient origin, so this is wife and 1 of the owners of the brewery.

So it's something that's important to us inherently, and just they've come with us because it was our hobby, and we drag and our partners to breweries, and we don't wanna some anyone to go anywhere and feel like, oh, I'm the only 1 here that that looks like me. This is not maybe I'm not welcome here, or how does it feel?

So, like, diversifying the craft beer industry, I think, is the key to growth for it, particularly it it needs a lot more work here in Canada than it does in the States, for example. But it's something that we're really passionate about because that can change the game more than any more than, say, some I think that's gonna change it more than, like, getting people off their, you know, the ones who lock in to a beer.

Because those guys who might be in their fifties or something by now, probably my age too in the forties maybe, but I feel like they are almost, like, too late to convert. If you're that locked in, you're like, they're just never gonna budge because I think crappy is ridiculously here. The stories about it. But when you actually try it, investigate it a bit more. You're like, oh, wow. This is not what I thought it was.

So, yeah, we're hoping that the diversity angle is something to grow the industry. And once again, we are I don't even really benefit from it as much as the industry itself. But as a passionate consumer of beer, I wanna see it continue to thrive and grow at a lot of good friends who make the livings. And that industry. And I don't want them to have any issues either. So I I think that's more the secret to continuing the growth of the industry, like, over time.

Jonathan Green: And because I kind of wonder if the person who's willing to try a lot of different craft beers just keeps trying lots of different ones because it's kind of like I think the reason people have a favorite beer. It's usually not that good. Right? But it's like McDonald's. It's never gonna be great, but it's always gonna be the same. Right? Every time you drink a Bud Light, you know what it's gonna taste like.

Whereas so you're at 1 end of the spectrum, and then the other aspect versus, like, I want every beer to taste different from the last Like, where I grew up, there used to be a place that have a hundred beers in it. I'm like, yeah. I'll just try 1. That's always been me. And, usually, whatever the older people we went to college with are drinking is, like, this is what I drink forever. Right? And So I wonder about that.

Like, that's what's really interesting to me is that the experimenter is just gonna go try all the different ones constantly, constantly. So to try and get someone to pick 1 because I think that's it. It's sea craft beer as a large thing, right, as opposed to, oh, this is the small brewery that I like. So I think you're in a it's a very interesting industry, and I think it's very interesting that more and more people can create with a smaller footprint. Right?

You you don't need a giant location, and I obviously, those people, like, have a kit. I have some friends that do that. They teach you how to make beer in your house. It's never appealed to me. Right? I'm like, oh, I can't keep a plan alive. It takes 6 months. It seems very risky. It's like they used to make those kits where you could bet make your own soda at home. I'm like, I'm not gonna learn to do that. That's so high risk.

So it's a very interesting thing. What do you see as the future of the industry, where things are going, and what's really gonna make a difference? Craig Thorn: I think that's a great question. And you're very perceptive on the experiment, by the way. There's this thing they called Tika, culture, TICKER. There's an app called untapped, which is like a check-in app, kind of like 4 Square, if you remember that.

And, basically, you can find the beer, you check it in, and the idea is that you wanna rack up the numbers of the beers you check into. So there's a problem within a segment of the beer drinking community who only wants something new exactly what you said. So then breweries are pressured to drop new beers every week without really being able tweak a recipe over time to perfect it. Like, you just gotta, like, alright. Come up with a new beer. There's some breweries.

They'll drop 345 beers every single week. And if you can imagine the amount of planning that it would take to make that many different beers. By the end of it, they're all like New England IPAs who just got different hop varieties and barely tweaked malt bills and stuff. So it's it it's become a big issue in beer for sure. Some breweries who have attached their livelihood to it, I guess, If the trend passes, then what are they gonna do?

Like, we don't know what the answer with that is. You know, like, it's tough. So as far as the future would be, the trends are going towards seltzers a little bit and low ABV and lower calorie. Because after the pandemic, everyone's fat and burke. So they're like because they were drinking when crazy, drinking, like, 8 percent double IPAs every day. And, like, a lot of the attention has gone towards a lower ABB and lower calorie stuff.

So I think it's more like the future of it would be lot like, a bit more balanced because before, it was a lot of extreme. And if they can get more balanced stuff to appeal to more people, that's gonna help. And then the extreme stuff will still be there if you wanna if you get into it. Maybe it's like you the way you're describing yourself. You might just get into it. You might find 1 brewery you just really like.

You like a couple of their styles, and you're completely satisfied with that. Whereas others might discover the same b as you do, and then be like, oh, I need more. Well, this is other brewery down the street, and then more more than here they are, you know, a year later, and they're super nerdy about it. Jonathan Green: Yeah. You brought something really important to me. So a few years ago, a friend of mine found a new beer. He goes, this is my new favorite beer.

I went to all these bars that no 1 had. And finally, we found out it's seasonal. And it's like -- It's the biggest problem. Yeah. That's, like, the worst that's literally the worst thing you can hear. It's, like, that's exactly my fear is that you I find a new beer, and I go, this is my new beer. And they go, oh, we're only making that for 2 weeks. Yeah. And it's like -- That's almost everything. That's the problem. Yeah.

That so that I think the thing that, like, is working for that 1 segment is actually almost would repel me, right, from I don't wanna learn something and then like it and then find out that I can't have it anymore. Right? Like, no. I want like, the person who's looking for a new favorite beer because I kinda wonder I the 1 thing I don't hear is a process. Right? It feels like they're either targeting, like, a big transition people that are trying a lot to everything.

But if there was just a process for saying, hey. Let us help you find your new favorite beer. That will be interesting to me. Like, I've been to of those, like, Oktoberfest type events where they have a bunch of different beers and a cup by by the sixth 1. Right? I don't remember which 1 I like. They all like, I've Like, it's by the fourth drink of the night, they all taste the same to me. Right?

But that's I think there's something there that would be interesting to me. Right? The middle of the market, the guy is forties who, like, drinks sometimes, but I don't yeah. It's exactly that. The only thing worse than trying a new beer that stinks is falling in love with the beer and finding out I can't have it anymore. And he said, that was a beer of the week.

So it's interesting to see that this market has these unique challenges that because you have different types of audiences, you 1 thing that 1 audience wants is what the other audience doesn't want. So -- Yeah. -- this is very interesting. I think that it'll be interesting to see how things go. There's all these, like, smaller and smaller, same thing for wine.

As you know, like, smaller and smaller creations and all these things, and it's like, I don't wanna fall in love with something, and then I can never have it again. Right? So it's very interesting. So where can people find out more about what you do, listen to your podcast, and hear more about your journey? Because it's very interesting. I think people are gonna love this episode. Craig Thorn: Thanks Mate. Yeah. It's been a great conversation.

It's even cooler for me to talk to someone who isn't as ingrained in beer about beer because I'm used to the what you call it, the echo chamber of talking to other beer nerds about beer all the time, but you brought up so many astute points about the industry. And challenges that like, I I imagine the average person who doesn't know much about being able to even consider. So I I really appreciate that. It's very cool. So thank you for your time, man.

This has been great. You guys can get it as at BA0S podcast, o s podcast dot com, at B0S podcast on every social, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok, the whole works. We drop podcasts every week. We're right now at the time of recording, doing the link up series, which was the nonprofit. So doing regular podcasts as well as the link up ones we're interviewing the breweries. We do these collaborative beers. We have these series. So we're doing that. We're very active on social. Yeah.

Check it out. You ever got anyone's ever got questions? Like, you hit us up about beer. Pretty well versed in on North America, and it could at least lead answer some basic questions and point you in the right direction wherever in the world you are because there's great beer everywhere, which is very cool. Jonathan Green: Great. Thank you so being here. I'll make sure to put those links to the show notes, and this has been another amazing episode. Thank you so much, Craig. Cheers, man.

Craig Thorn: Thanks for having us. Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Serve No Master podcast. Make sure to subscribe so that together, we can achieve true freedom. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Serve No Master podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss another episode. We'll be back next week with more tips and tactics on how to escape the rat race. Please take a moment to leave a review at serve no master dot com forward slash itunes.

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