SNM219: How To PR Your Way To Podcast Success with Jeremy Slate

Jeremy Slate: It may not be pretty. It may not be great, but you're gonna be doing it. And I think that's the value in it. And there's so much learning in that. There's so dude I still do stonewall way too much, and I've done almost a thousand interviews as a host and I've lost how many count of how many I did as a guest. Like you gotta realize it's not gonna be perfect, but you're doing it. You're adding value. You're getting out there.

And I think that's the real thing you gotta look at. Jonathan Green: Today we're gonna learn about the power of PR and how you can use it to accelerate your business with very special guest Jeremy Slate. Jeremy, I'm so excited to have you on this episode. Welcome and thank you for coming to the Serve No Master podcast. Jeremy Slate: Hey, man. I'm really excited to be here and excited to talk about podcasting and PR today.

Cause I feel like it's the thing that can help a lot of people go from, where they are to, to where they want to go. So, thanks for having me, man. Jonathan Green: Yeah. This is a topic near and dear to my heart. Cause I've been messing around with this podcast for five or six years now and I've tried different formats. The thing I've found is that there's a couple of people that just really do really well with it.

And there's a lot of people that do six episodes, eight episodes and quit. Jeremy Slate: Yep. Jonathan Green: So, I like to talk about that first hump. How can people stick with it past that six to eight-episode limit and what's causing people to quit? Are they expecting a result too soon? Are they all making a similar mistake? Jeremy Slate: I think frankly, like it's expectations to start out with.

Do you remember, I'm dating myself by saying this, but there is like back in 2007, there's this South Park episode. And this is back when YouTube got like super popular and Cartman thought, like you just make a YouTube video and you get the magical internet money. Like people have the same idea on podcasting. They think that they're gonna start a show. Everybody wants to listen to.

That may be true that people may in the future, but like for most of us you have to be willing to commit to a year, sometimes a year and a half to, to really make it a success. So, I think they don't come into it with the right expectations. They come into it thinking it's gonna be the thing that moves the needle right now and which it may be, but it's gonna take time. So, you have to be willing to build an audience.

You have to be willing to create value and do it for some period of time. I know, even for myself and I'd love your viewpoint on this. It took me a long time to feel like I was good as a host. And I think that's also part of what allows people to listen to you more than five or six episodes. Jonathan Green: Yeah. So, I started off differently. I started off doing a solo podcast. I did 150 episodes, five episodes a week. Jeremy Slate: Wow.

Jonathan Green: For about a year and a half before I burned out, I just couldn't do it because I couldn't do that much audio content. It's so much content to putting out about 25 minutes a day, five days a week, it's just added up. That's like almost three hours of content that I would record, edit it down it. Then switching to the interview format.

I think there's this trick or this catch 22, it feels like it's either I can, I can't get the guest who consent, bring me new people, or I can get the guest who nobody wants to see anyways. And that's, I think what holds a lot of people back, you don't know, who's gonna say yes, and you don't really know the right format. So, those are two formats I've played around with. I do think that, and my friend Jordan has a huge podcast.

And he interviews like celebrities and presidential candidates, all these people, his friends like late night show host. That's his like circle of friends now, cuz he's living that LA life. And he was talking about the biggest mistake you can make as a new podcaster is to get that huge interview at the beginning when you don't know what you're doing yet.

Yeah, your dad's friends with Chuck Norris, you get him for your first episode and it's such a waste because you haven't build that skill set that it does take a long time to develop. So, I think you're absolutely right. Jeremy Slate: It's being willing to screw up, man. At the same time, like one of the things I've tried to do is look at other people that interview well and see what they do. Frankly, Oprah's an incredible interviewer.

If you look at some of the things she does it's about making a safe space for your guests. It's about asking the right questions. It's about getting them really comfortable. So, they wanna communicate with you. And, realizing that the questions you may have written don't have a ton written, right? Some people over prepare, have three to five, ready to go, where you want to go, but then realize it's the follow up questions that matter the most.

So, asking good follow up questions and just looking at other people that interview, man, don't look at other podcasters if you wanna learn how to interview. Look at people that have been doing this for a really long time. Jonathan Green: I think that there's something a lot of people don't realize is that if you're watching a late-night TV show interview, or a high-level podcast interview, there's a massive amount of research that happens beforehand. Jeremy Slate: Yeah, no, that's huge.

So, like I just interviewed a guy about John McAfee, which it was the wildest thing. I've read this book. And I told the author afterwards, I think I am more confused than before I read the book. But the thing I found is like, when you come into with that level of preparation, you have insight and you have things you can talk about and whatever, if you haven't read the book, not that it's easy to do, right? Like it's a lot of time and commitment.

It changes the game on how you interview. Jonathan Green: Yeah. And the other thing is, that you can end up asking questions that everyone else asks. And so, you end up just giving a repeat interview and that's the other challenge. Someone's like oh, people always ask me that. And when you get that great interview is you ask the question that no one else has asked. And so, I think there's a couple of things.

And I think that the only way to find that, in my opinion, like you said, is just to do it a lot. Is to watch people that do a lot of interviews. And then to just practice a lot. And that's why it's okay to start with smaller people. Like I'm the same thing. I'm building out this new interview format.

And so, instead of focusing on the biggest gets I can get, like just saying, who can I get with the biggest traffic I'm just focused on trying to get people that I think are interesting that I think my audience would be interesting. Because something that could happen is an example, was my friend, he interviewed Gary Vanerchuk when he had no audience. That was like 10 or 12 years ago. And so, sometimes people are small when they start, but they get huge.

And then those people go and find that old interview you have. So, there's like this permanent value and there's a lot of value in getting people. It's a lot easier to get someone 10 years ago than now, when they're super famous. So, I think there is a lot to be said for being willing to figure it out and being willing to make mistakes. And you can always edit the episode or take down an episode if it goes really bad.

Jeremy Slate: Yeah, I've had some that were rough I'm sure you have as well. Like I had a guest some one time and there was like an airplane behind them where I'm like, come on, dude, can we handle that? You gotta be cool with making some mistakes, it's vital to growing. Jonathan Green: How do you feel about people that do their podcast live? Like another podcaster, I know they've been talking to a lot.

He does five episodes a week with like news anchors and that type of people a lot, or someone with a book and he's doing five a day. And he is oh, I recorded live, I stream it live, edit it in less than 30 minutes and throw it onto my channel. And he's got a massive following. And to me that sounds. Amazing. That's like a live radio show, right? Like you made no mistakes. You need no edits. I don't know if I could do that.

Jeremy Slate: So, I know my friend, Eric, he's blown up his YouTube channel doing this. Like he'll like streams, all of them live to YouTube and it's really worked for him for growing an audience. But I know for me I grew up like listening to Paul Harvey and like stuff like that on the radio. I like the magic of something that's been created and shaped and fashioned. So, I don't like the idea of doing it live.

Cause I feel like at the same time, guests show up differently live than when they show up to hang out with you. I dunno if you found that, like I find that they show up slightly different and a little bit more chilled out when they know it's gonna be edited and whatever. So, I feel like you get a more real conversation.

So, like I said, I've seen it work for growth, but at the same time, I prefer doing it the other way, cuz I really feel like I'm creating something. Jonathan Green: Okay. So, going back to where we were started out, someone starting out, they've heard some ideas from us. They're thinking of launching their podcast. What's the best format for a beginner.

I know there's all these different formats, whether it's a comedy podcast or interview podcast or a solo podcast, what are some things they need to put in place in addition to their expectations to start the podcast off on the right foot? Jeremy Slate: I think first and foremost; interview formats are just easier. Frankly, like I know you mentioned you did something that was like your own content pre-written for like hundreds of episodes, which dude that takes a lot of work.

People don't realize the amount of prep work that goes into creating a 25-minute interview. There's a lot of work that goes into that. So, to me, I think interviews are easier, but like you said it's a good idea to start a little bit smaller. We don't have a ton of chops and be willing to do a hundred, 200 interviews to get your feet under you and really feel like, you're doing well with that.

So, I would say that, and I'd say number two, like realizing audio and video do matter. Two years ago, it was a lot more audio only podcast. Now we're going towards more people using video. So, I would say having good video setups matter, get yourself a good webcam if your computer camera sucks or something like that. And you don't have to have a big studio mic like I do. This is a Shure SM7B, but you can get a, nice audio Technica, like ATR 2100.

It's 60 bucks and it's gonna sound good, but you have to realize those are two big barriers to people. Being able to listen to you is good audio and video quality. Like those are important. You don't have to have a studio quality show, but those are really important.

And I think as I said, interviewing is a great way to start because content driven episodes, man, they're hard because they take a lot of writing, a lot of format and I don't know, like first time I did a solo episode, man, I sounded weird. I sounded uncomfortable. And those can be hard to listen to as well. Jonathan Green: So, how long should someone wait to expect something to happen? Like I know with SEO, they say, oh, you should start to see results in six months.

And with TikTok, they're like, you should have a following in a week. How should someone calibrate their expectations so, they know if something's wrong at a certain point or they're not jumping to the gun too soon. What's that, right? Like time frame. Jeremy Slate: So, with my show, we saw success pretty early, but this wasn't 2015, right? So, we're in a different world seven years ago. Like we saw 10,000 listens in our first month. And I was like nobody knew who I was.

So, I think expectations are a little bit different now, I would say, by three to six months, if you're not starting to see some of what you want, as I said, be willing to be this in for a year, but three to six months in that range. If you're not starting to see some things that you can work on, just start getting some feedback.

I would really take a look at your plan and how you're reaching people, but you should start to really get some feedback pretty quickly, frankly. So, three to six months, I think if you're not seeing what you wanna, it'd be a good time to making some change, but do not quit this before a year. You're not gonna see what you want. Jonathan Green: And what about episode frequency? Jeremy Slate: I've really changed my opinion on this. And I'd love to hear your thoughts too.

Like when I started out, man, I was doing seven days a week. And what I found is frankly, the episode started to suck after a while, right? Because you have to do so many. You become like an episode machine and the quality of them goes down. The content value goes down. We went down to five episodes a week, like three years ago. And then now I only do two a week. But they're good quality episodes that I'm really concentrating on interviews.

I think if you're doing one a week, it's just not enough to build up that critical mass. But I think with two a week, it's that balance between good content, something well created and valuable to people, but you're giving people more of an ability to build a listening habit and giving people more of an opportunity to find you. So, I think two a week is that sweet spot, at least what I found through all the years of different numbers of interviews.

Jonathan Green: And that's really interesting me, cuz I'm figuring that out right now, as I'm relaunching this format, you're the third interview in this new format where I'm figuring out. I'm stockpiling before we start releasing. I was just a guest on a podcast last week oh, we're gonna release episode in 12 weeks. I was like, oh, you guys are so ahead of schedule. That's great. Jeremy Slate: That's a long time.

Jonathan Green: So yeah, I've seen other shows, I'm friends with Chris Foss, his podcast is really big, and he does five episodes a week. He does the live episodes. He's oh, if you don't do five, no one's ever gonna find you. But I think part of it as well is if it's your only thing. Jeremy Slate: Yes. Jonathan Green: I put out so much content every week. It's that balance of, I have to shoot a YouTube video.

I have to shoot a bunch of short form videos. I put out so much content across my channels. I have to write several hundred emails, all these things. It's like, how much can I do? I think that frequency is so important. The one thing I do think is that you have to choose a pace you can maintain. If you can't do five a week. You're gonna burn out after three months, do less.

That's definitely true because there's nothing worse than like I expect a podcast episode to come out every noon on Friday, if I'm there at noon and there's not a new episode out. What happened here? Like it's such a thing. Jeremy Slate: I was putting in a floor at my father-in-law's house yesterday. I was putting in a hardwood floor and I had this one episode podcast I've listened to since literally 2007 called The No Agenda show. It's Adam Curry. It's a really entertaining podcast.

And around three o'clock on Sundays is usually when it gets uploaded. And I'm like pulling down the swipe down to get it to upload or get it to reload. And I'm like, come on guys. Where's the podcast. I agree with you, man. I'm waiting for that to be there on a Sunday afternoon. Jonathan Green: And when I was in high school, I remember the X files was like Friday night television. And so, I'd come home. I'd watch it. It was like the spooky Friday night.

And then they moved it to Sunday nights. And like the ratings went just down. Like they just tanked because moving it right and moved it away from that expectation. And it's like when you move a show around you change the day of the week, it can kill that show, right? Like you go, oh, this isn't performing well enough on Thursday, you move it to Tuesday and then just dies because that expectation, we expect that regularity.

It's if the newspaper gets delivered late, for people who still get a newspaper. So, I think that's interesting. Now I'm like, oh man, I need to do two a week. I need to push that. I think the biggest thing to me is having a process. The thing I've learned growing my business more than anything else is you have to have a process. And so, we've been doing a lot of work in our project management software, Click Up like planning out how we're gonna recruit guests.

How many have in the queue? How do we know where it's in the process, what we need? So, we can't publish an episode until we have the mini clips and social media stuff to send it a guest, if they wanna share it so that we can go, oh, if you wanna share, here's a great clip of you looking amazing without it being that hard pressure. And all of that has to be ready like a week before you email the guests.

So, that's part of what we're working on is our process. But I think a lot of it is people are afraid of outreach and they don't know how to calibrate. Jeremy Slate: Yeah. Jonathan Green: And the only way to learn is to do it a lot. My business is like 90, 95% outreach based. That's how I meet people. We do a lot of cold emails. And what I look at is if I send the email, I get a certain response rate.

If my team sends the same email, it's about half that rate. So, rather than put pressure on them, I'm like just email it twice as many people. And so, this is for some of the other things in our business. So, it's the same thing. And the other thing about podcasts is most people will say, yes, they don't check. Like when I'm on someone else's show, I don't look to see like how popular the podcast is or not. I don't have time to do that.

I was on podcast last week, my team goes, these guys are cool, be on their podcast. I go, okay. I dunno anything else. And most guests, we don't do that. Unless you're at, I guess the highest level, but I know that one of my followers reached out to someone like a scientist, he really looked up and the scientist was like, I'd love to be on your show. And he was like what do I do? I didn't expect a yes on the first ask.

So, I think that you'll be amazed how many people say yes, and it's a lot of it is the way you ask. And maybe you can talk about that, cuz you're really an expert at outreach and getting amazing guests and reaching to amazing people. What's the right way to approach someone versus the wrong way? Jeremy Slate: So, you were talking about outreach and so, here's the interesting thing I've found. I had a booker for years and we get some cool guests and it was great.

Do you know what I found? Frankly, number one, I found Twitter is the best tool to use for guest outreach. I've had so much more success, DMing people on Twitter. But number two, I found that when I reach out to my guests, myself, I get like 80% of the ones I want just by reaching out myself. And I don't spend a ton of time on it, I spend an hour every couple weeks.

And I have a very particular reason that I reach out to them about what I wanna talk about. You know what I mean? Like I find when you're ambiguous about what you wanna discuss, it can be hard to actually get that interview. So, you reach out to them, you tell them exactly what you want to cover, why you want to cover it and why this is the right format and form to do it. And I've had a lot of success doing that, frankly.

Jonathan Green: That's interesting. I think that in my experience, the most important thing is to let the person know, who they. I dunno if this happens to you, but I get a lot of automated emails from SEO companies or from people that will help me learn how to make products. I was like that's my area of expertise. That's the craziest one I get. And things like that. And you can tell, or people who offer to give me a free blog post and they feel so automated.

And so, in person, they don't know the name of my book. They don't know anything about me. They just go like dear owner of website. And I know that's the worst way to do it. So, I think that, yes, something in the message that says, I actually know who you are and I'm asking you for a reason other than I think you have something I want, but I don't even know what it is. Jeremy Slate: No, I think that's vital, it really is.

Cuz as I said, when I'm reaching out to somebody, it's usually I want their opinion on X, Y, Z. So, it's like I've read their book or I've watched an interview with them or I've followed them for a really long time. Here's an example. I'm a Yankees fan. And my favorite player for years was Nick Swisher. He wasn't the greatest player out there. He was a good player, but I was a huge Nick Swisher fan.

So, I sent him an Instagram DM video about number one, wearing my Nick switcher Jersey, about how excited I would be to have him on the podcast, why his career mattered so much to me. And then what I wanted to talk about. And it was an instant yes. And I think those are some of the things to think about. Is like number one, it's relevant, but also at the same time, how has their content, what they've done, what they've achieved, how has it mattered to you?

And I think that's really important. Jonathan Green: What percentage of the messages that you send are video? Jeremy Slate: Very small percentage actually, it's a very small percentage. It's usually like Twitter DM-s, as long as their DM-s are open. So, what I'll do is if their DM-s are open, I'll shoot them a message that way. And it's usually a text message, which is like to the point of, why their work matters to me, what I wanna discuss and how long it's gonna be.

Because when you think about busy people, those are the things they need to know to make a decision, like what do you wanna discuss? Why does it matter? How long is it gonna be? Where is it gonna be? So, those are things that like, I really try to handle right off the bat. Now, if it's somebody that it's a very particular message I wanna send, like it was with Nick Swisher, I'll send video, but it's probably less than 10% of my messages are video.

Jonathan Green: Okay. I often hear there's always this new video text sending video emails. And I've been hearing about tech like this since I started 12 years ago, full time. And someone actually, I just got my first video message last week. That was personal. Normally what they do is they say my name in the email, and then they send me to a video that doesn't have my name and I go, oh, they're sending this to everyone.

But last week someone sent me one way, said my name and stuff, and they were talking about specific things and I really responded, it was someone I'm already friends with, but I very much respond to. I was like, oh, this is very interesting to do it this way to actually not use it for mass marketing, which doesn't feel very good. Cause you can tell it's a trick. So, I think that's very interesting. And it is interesting as well cuz everyone has their communication channel.

Some people only do emails. Some people only do Instagram. Some people only do Twitter. And so, meeting people where they are. I think that's a really good idea. Now should someone who's starting to, they go, okay, I wanna start my podcast next week. You guys got me excited. Should they start chasing that big guests? Like, how should they start their initial process? Is it okay to just get anyone who will say yes at first and start there?

Or should they start out with a certain level of outreach? What's that right baseline? Jeremy Slate: It's interesting cuz as you and I like already spoke about, I think it's good to get your feet under you by like being okay with messing up a little. But I think at the same time, it's a good idea to shoot big. Like I shot big right outta the game. And I had some email exchanges with some cool people.

Like the first person I reached out to was Seth Godin and Seth was super cool. He's no, when you get to 400, let me know. He was episode 400, but you have to be willing to do that and put yourself out there. Cuz I think some people won't take the risk. So, I don't know, man, I'm torn because I know for myself I took some big shots in the dark right away and I had some luck and we figured it out.

But I do think you need to get some experience under you. So, I think it's a balance of, and this is a really bad answer, so I apologize, but like it's a balance of shooting big, but at the same time, realizing you gotta get your feet under you. It's a hard balance, but like at least that's how I did it. Jonathan Green: And how do you think your interview would've been different was Seth if it had been your first episode, is that of your fourth hundredth?

Jeremy Slate: It probably wouldn't have been very good, frankly, those first 20, I can't even listen to. And they're just bad. My wife always reminds me all the words I repeated. She's like stop saying awesome every other word, like it's really bad. Like it's bad. I think it wouldn't have been the interview it was. And also at the same time, like how I research changed, how I interview changed, like a lot of who I was as a host changed.

So, I don't think it would've been, the interview that it was. And it was a really great interview. We talked about, the future of work and being an entrepreneur versus being like a freelancer and things like that. So, I think there's a lot of value in getting your feet under you, but at the same time, I think some people use that to say they're never ready. And I think that's the tough part.

Jonathan Green: You just making me think of all the things I say that I edit out. So, I have this list of words that I can't stop myself, that I have a list that my editor knows if I say this. Big one is "and so", I hate when I say that. Jeremy Slate: Yeah. Jonathan Green: I wanna say it now because I just planted the seed. It's like a big, it's my main transition word. And so, there it is. I'm always like, delete it.

And I don't know if other people notice it. It becomes the thing. That's your thing. And I have a couple of other words like that and when the pauses are too long, don't leave too long pauses. People will think. The player's broken, especially if, sometimes I have a two-minute pause on my solo episodes where I'm thinking of what I wanna talk about next. Jeremy Slate: Yeah. Jonathan Green: So, it is that thing, the balance of what you worry about versus what other people worry about.

Like when I shoot a video. I have a second camera over here when I'm shooting my YouTube videos. And I'm always thinking, does the angle from the side look terrible, but when I watch other people's videos, they do it all the time. That's why I have it. But I think that I look terrible from that angle. Jeremy Slate: I think a lot of times we're our own worst critic, man. Like we're our own worst critic.

And I think sometimes like that can be the thing that actually keeps us from getting started. When it's realizing it may not be pretty, it may not be great, but you're gonna be doing it. And I think that's the value in it. And there's so much learning in that. There's so dude I still stonewall way too much, and I've done almost a thousand interviews as a host and I've lost how many count of how many I did as a guest.

Like you gotta realize it's not gonna be perfect, but you're doing it. You're adding value. You're getting out there. And I think that's the real thing you gotta look at. Jonathan Green: That's why I like to pre-record so, I can go and delete the ums, the and so's. Any of those other words that gives you that ability that gives me that freedom and go, oh, I can always remove it. I expect to make mistakes.

A powerful lesson that I learned is that we often compare our backstage to people's front stage. All I see if I'm watching your podcast is the polished edited stuff, right? I'm not seeing what was before, what was after, the glitches, the tech stuff, people who see this episode, they're not gonna see that we had a problem with your camera. At first, we had to change a setting. I'm not gonna publish that part right. When we do it, we look at another people's stuff.

We go, it seems like they're never worried. They're never worried about money. They're never worried about guests. They're never at those things, but that's their stage presence. This entire thing that we put out into the world, especially when our lives are our brand. That's not exactly reality. Like it's a more polished version of yourself. I've shot video when I'm really sick. I hide it. I don't wanna tell everyone, hey guys, I'm trying not to throw up. Like you don't say that. So, they never know.

So, they go, wow. Jonathan never gets sick. Jeremy Slate: And at the same time, I don't think we always talk about like the stuff we do to get through an interview. When I get a big interview, man, I still get stressed as hell. And I go for a walk because I know it'll calm me down, but we don't really talk about those things because we want it to look good. We want people to have the perception and you have to realize it's not always pretty.

Like I had David Patreus on a couple years ago. He's a former CIA director and dude, I was so nervous. I went for a walk and I was still shaken when I hit record on the thing. And then eventually we chilled out because he was a cool guy, but yet you have to be, you gotta realize it's not perfect. It's just, we are people. We do what we do to make it work.

Jonathan Green: I was doing an interview last year with Ryan Levesque, who's a marketer I really look up to, runs a fortune 500 company. And in the interview, he said, I can tell from someone's questions, how intelligent they are. And for the rest of the interview, that's all I could think about. I was like, am I asking stupid questions? Am I asking stupid questions? And I got so paranoid about it was like the ultimate seed.

I was like every time I get interviewed, I'm gonna start saying that to people, cuz it just puts you in control. It totally got in the back of my head. Of course, I'm trying not to show it on screen. That's a really powerful thing to say. Jeremy Slate: It definitely is. And I don't know if I would say that now. Cause I don't wanna scare people. Like I could see that put you in a really weird spot.

At the same time though I think like just really listening to somebody at the same time, make 'em feel like you're asking better questions too. Do you get what I'm saying? Because so many hosts don't listen because they're ready for that next question. I usually keep a pad next to me so I can get rid of thought so I can remember to ask it, cuz you try to concentrate on that thought and you stop listening. Jonathan Green: That's really good.

My interview technique is, and that's something that someone else taught me. When I book a guest, I'll say to them, Hey, can you send me a list of the six or seven questions you really want me to ask? And usually I ask one of them, but it gives me like a line of, oh, this is the row they want to go down. And that tells me a lot. They give me a lot of baseline. So, get a sense of what they wanna talk about.

And what I do is I call it chasing the interesting. Cause if something's interesting to me, it's probably interesting to my audience. Jeremy Slate: Yes. Jonathan Green: So, whenever I have to really engage with you and I'm really listening to what you said, I'm going, what's the most interesting thing to me. And the last thing you said, and that's what I wanna build on top of. And I find for me at least. Because I'm really afraid. One of my greatest fears is to be boring.

I think being called boring is like the ultimate insult. So, I'm afraid of that. So, I'm always chasing the interesting it's the opposite of the spectrum. So, I think what's the most interesting thing you said. That's what I wanna talk more about. That's what I wanna dive into rather than it's very hard for me to just follow a set of questions cuz I'm like, oh, this question is what they want me to ask. This is what I wanna ask because this is really exciting for me.

That's how I create the interesting for my audience and my audience is mostly like me. That's how people find me is they like that style. So, that's what drives me because when people are just reading from a script, it does feel weird. Like you might as well just send me the list to have me prerecord my answers.

Jeremy Slate: Yeah, it's interesting too, cuz like one of the things I do and this may sound weird, but like I usually pre-write three to five of the questions, like realizing Hey, I'm gonna use these three to five and these are important. And then the follow ups where it goes.

But one of the things that I do is I'll find an interview they did with somebody I admire less for the answers they give, but more for their style of communication because I wanna understand like, okay, do I have to supply a better question? Because they're like a yes, no person. What do you think about that? Yes. No. Yes, no. So, do I have to ask a better question that has more in it that's gonna make them answer better.

Are they somebody that answers way too long? So, my questions have to be more concise. Are they someone that is too contemplative when I ask a question. So, these are things like you need to know, do they do long pauses? So, as an interviewer, these are all things I need to know and how I'm gonna not just format my questions, but also how I'm gonna ask them and how I'm gonna communicate to them in the interview. Like to me, that's actually really vital.

Jonathan Green: That's really good advice. Cause I think a lot of people were trying to do that bare minimum. We're so busy and we're sometimes I've been on interviews where people forget my name or don't know how they met me. This happens to me all the time. I'm very forgetful of who people are. I've been on a podcast before. That was my second time on the podcast. And the guy said that, and I was like, in my head, I'm like, I've met you before.

I have this software that I use to help me remember people. So, what I have to do right after this interview, Is go into the software and it's just help me remember things and write down what we talked about and what the podcast was about. Cuz the content will go out. And when you message me again in two months, I don't wanna forget who you are so I can look up your name and look up your email. That's really critical.

So, knowing you have a weakness and I'm not ashamed of it, cuz I guess a lot of people have stuff like this. I just thought of it like six months ago I heard about something. I said, oh that's so useful to me. Cause I've tried these memory systems where you have to remember like an ax going into someone's head. If their name is hatchet, I don't know anyone named hatchet. So, I dunno why that's the first thing they taught me.

But I think that is going a little bit, the extra mile, learning a little bit about the someone. Cause sometimes people ask questions that are like really crazy. There's this maybe not crazy is the right word, but there's this saying for lawyers? Don't ask a question you don't know the answer to. Jeremy Slate: Yeah. Jonathan Green: And I saw someone on TV one time interview someone, or they're talking to someone and the interviewer is asking questions.

And he talks to this lady and says, oh, where are you from? And she goes, New Orleans. He goes, how's your family in Katrina. And she goes, two of them died. That's why you don't ask that question. Jeremy Slate: That's a really bad question to ask. How's your mom? She died five years ago. Ooh. Okay. Sorry, man. Jonathan Green: That one can be unexpected, but asking about a natural disaster and look, I was in a natural disaster.

I was in a natural disaster, as bad as it gets like Katrina, except for I was in a wooden house with a straw roof. I don't like to talk about it. Okay. And we can get in the whole thing about how Mendo talk about their emotions, which is the whole thing.

It's hard to talk about that stuff, but when it comes up and it came out on the last podcast I was being interviewed on, I was like, I have to talk about it because it's a huge thing. And I get that, but I don't like talking about it. I understand people not wanting to talk about their bad stuff. I'm not that format of podcast, right? This isn't a hard-hitting podcast. Like I remember one time someone was asking John Stewart, why don't you ask hard hitting questions?

When you have someone on your show, he's I follow Papa to do crank calls. I thought it was such a good answer. He is like, you're a 24-hour news channel. You should ask the hard-hitting questions. I'm definitely on a comedy channel and that calibrates you. So, I look for a sense of rapport with my guests. I only interview people that I like, if I didn't like you, this wouldn't to be happening. I would shut it down.

I was on a call with someone about a year ago who made me hate him in about seven minutes. And I was like, this is very impressive. I said, I want you to know that's the fastest anyone's ever done that to me. And my wife knows I'm sour. My natural instinct is to not meet new people. Like I am not friendly. I'm past that phase. I'm past 40 where I'm like, I don't wanna meet new people. I only meet people through work cuz that's my job.

And I like meeting people there. I don't have any friends in our neighborhood. Like we got invited to a party at the neighbor's house like two weeks ago and we went and it was fun, but we left we're the first ones to leave and we haven't been invited back. Jeremy Slate: I'll tell you what, man, I'm very quick to abandon ship on a conversation that like makes me feel bad about myself.

Like I had talked to a guy and this is also like, when I'm looking at like clients who wanna bring on board, right? If they make me feel bad or one of my sales people feel bad in the sales process, even if I take their money, like they're gonna be like a wrecking ball to my company. And that's something to be thinking about. Like I had a call with this guy.

And he was willing to pay me in full for our services, but his opinion of PR agencies was they're all criminals. None of them get a product. They all suck. And I may not like you, and I may ask you for a refund in six months. I'm like, wow, man, that's all great stuff. I'm sorry to hear that. So, I don't think we're a good fit for each other. I wish you the best of luck.

Here's a couple of agencies you can give a call, but it's not gonna be us. Sometimes you gotta be okay with that. When people are making you feel bad about yourself and your communication, that's one of the first indicators of me. We shouldn't be working together. Jonathan Green: Yeah. Anytime someone mentions the worst-case scenario or them betraying you, like asking for a refund or saying, oh, I can always charge back on day 179.

If you know that and that's something you're thinking about, that's not my culture. Like I don't do a lot of refunding that kind of thing. That's not how I approach business in life. When you start a relationship and the first thing you say is like how are we gonna divide our CDs if we break up? That's not a first day conversation, but that's the same thing you're talking about there. Jeremy Slate: It is, yeah. Jonathan Green: I think that's really good.

Cause a lot of the time, especially if we think you're here and your guest is here or like the client, whatever, you will act in a different way because you are looking up the mountain at them, whether they're on a pedestal or they're just more successful than you. And it can cause you to act in a different way. Then, if it's a guest you don't care about, have you ever met someone who's a celebrity and you didn't know who they were.

And so, you acted really normal. There it is. And everyone else is acting really weird. But you're acting so normal. So, that allows you to have a much better conversation. Jeremy Slate: That happens to me a lot, actually, because, I'm not somebody that knows pop culture and I've met a decent amount of celebrities and I'm just somebody that likes to talk to people. I'm like, hey man, how's it going? I've been in those conversations a lot and then not realize people are famous.

And then after the fact they're like, Hey, that was blah, blah. I'm like, I don't watch TV. I have no idea. Jonathan Green: That shows us that it's not the famous person. It's the way we act towards them. Jeremy Slate: Oh, yeah. Jonathan Green: When people meet me, they sometimes act that way to me. Like I'm a little bit famous. I have a best-selling book doing this for 12 years.

I have a little bit of following every once in a while, someone meets me in person who already knows who I am. And I can tell because they do things that are strange. I guess the best way to say is they act like I'm more famous than I am. Jeremy Slate: Yeah. Jonathan Green: And I don't know what the level of famous word act, but they act like I've had someone vow to me one time oh, I'm so sorry to dusturbing you, bowed and backed away.

And I was like, that's cool once, because I definitely wanna say someone vowed to me one time. But I was really bored. This is the crazy word. I was super bored. The person I was there with at the bar that I had met someone and walked off, I was alone for the next 45 minutes. Wish the guy didn't walk away. Like he had a golden opportunity. There's nothing better than meeting your hero when they're bored. Cuz that's when they're the most open.

But that is a critical lesson is that it's not them. It's you. And so, when you act strange, whether it's someone you want that client, you wanna close the deal, you start making promises, you shouldn't make, or that guest you wanna get. So, what are some red flags someone should look for either in their behavior or the guest behavior to know that something's going wrong and how can they deal with that?

Jeremy Slate: First part is I have to handle the bow thing cuz that's funny, like in my head, when you said that the thing that came to mind was the guy with the American flag pants in Napoleon dynamite. That's going bow to your sensei. But anyway, please tell me you've seen that movie? And he's like I'm famous cuz I go home to whatever the wife's name was every night, bow to your sensei.

Anyway, when it's not going well, I've actually stopped an interview before and been like, Hey, is everything okay? Like you need to handle something, like what's happening. And not like I do that a lot, but I have done that before and it's handled the situation. There was one time as I mentioned earlier, the guy with the airplanes in the background, this is a very memorable one for me. Cause actually stopped the interview and didn't finish the interview because he was just a jerk and he's famous.

So, I'm not gonna talk about him, like by name. I just don't think that's cool to bad mouth people. But it was like, one of the things I would do is I would ask people like, where can they find you? And this guy like literally said, Google me. And I'm like, come on, man. Like this is about like adding value. So, to me, it's number one as you mentioned, a lot of how we react to the situation is a lot of what creates the situation.

So, I take a look at okay, so what am I doing in this situation that's causing this? Or how can I improve it? Or if it just literally seems just something's wrong with the guests, I'll stop and talk to 'em like I've found people had family things happening or they actually wanted to reschedule, but they felt bad about my time and whatever it may be.

It's number one, if it really is the guest and it's obvious it's the guest figure out what's happening and if they need something, like it'd be cool that if they need help or if they need to change time or whatever it is. And the other thing is if it's you projecting whatever's happening with you, then take a look at how you can handle it. I think that's the other thing. Jonathan Green: So, let's say.

You're having an interview and it's going really well, but you feel like you've gone off track. Like you're just talking about random stuff and you feel like there's no more direction anymore. What's the best way to bring it back. What's the way to go? Oh, something's distracting. There's something inside you. Like you said, you're having a distraction or other person's distracted. What's a way to bring back on track to the destination you're trying to drive to? Jeremy Slate: I'm bad at this.

Getting back to bla, or as we were discussing in bla, like I find a point where there's like a good point to do that and bring 'em back. And sometimes it's something they mention like, oh yeah, you were saying bla actually we were discussing bla. So, I wanna take a look at that again. Or, let's get back to, so I guess I, and I sound like those are my rote responses cuz they are, but. That's typically how I handle it is a host.

You gotta realize what it's going on too long and when you can redirect and don't make them wrong on that, like laughing it off cuz its funny as well. Hey, yeah, I get it. Okay. But like getting back to where we were, we were discussing blah, blah, blah, blah. And you had just said, blah. So, I really wanted to know blah, get what I'm saying. It's like bringing 'em back to the place where you are. Doing it, obviously, frankly.

Jonathan Green: So, to bring it back to what we were trying to driving towards is I know you have a new book coming out Unremarkable to Extraordinary . Can you tell me a little bit about where that book came from and how that ties into everything we've been talking about? Jeremy Slate: Yeah. So, when I started the podcast on day one, it was with the goal of actually writing a book. And the thing I always did is I always told myself the timing wasn't right.

I wasn't ready and whatever it may be. And I finally got to the point where I felt like I could do this and that was in 2019, I started writing it and then 2020 happened, which is why the book is not out until, June of this year, because being 2022, because life happened, my dad got COVID it was a really kind of tough period of time. So, like I stopped writing three separate times, I had my second daughter in that period of time.

It was tough in actually getting through the process. But in terms of where the idea came from is I've realized that all of us start out unremarkable. We're all just people, some of us start out with a little bit more, some of us start out with a little bit less. Some of us, have more privilege. Some of us have less privilege, but we're essentially unremarkable. And it's the things that we do that make us extraordinary.

And when I've looked at different people, I've looked at people that I've interviewed. I've looked at people I haven't interviewed that I've really admired. Tom Brady is somebody I've really looked at, he barely started in high school. Barely started in college. Wouldn't have started in the NFL if the quarterback ahead of him didn't get hurt. But he showed up every day, worked his butt off, always improved every day and put himself in position that when things were gonna go really right for him.

And I found that to be very interesting with a lot of people I've talked to is they're very consistent. They're not willing to shy away from hard work, but at the same time there's some other important things about 'em like, they're not willing to not do what they want to do because of the opinions of others. And I find too often, we will live our lives for people that aren't willing to die for us.

And you have to realize that, unless somebody else is really willing to give their life for you, then their opinion doesn't mean a heck of a hill of beans to where you're going in life. So, to me, I think there's these tried and true things that can help someone become the best version of themselves. And that's where my book Unremarkable for Extraordinary came to. And, it's coming out on June 7th available for pre-order right now, and we're just really excited to get it out there, man.

Jonathan Green: I think that's a really good message. A lot of times other people give us bad advice. One of the things I have learned is when someone gives me advice, I ask them have you done it? If someone tells me, don't go swimming out there. It's really dangerous. I go, have you been swimming out there? Have you ever started your own business? The number of people, especially for entrepreneurs, they'll tell you don't start your own business. It won't work.

And I say how many of your own businesses did you start? And they're like, none. I've never done it. I'm like then I shouldn't take advice from you. Like someone reached out to me for marriage advice. When I'd only been married for about two years, I said, how long have you been married? They go 11 years ago, why are you asking me? I don't know how to be married for 11 years. I can tell you I'd be married for two years. That's all I know about.

We look for this advice, we take advice from people that have no idea what they're talking about and there's this effect like the whisper effect. If we hear the same advice, three or four times, even though it's a rumor repeating in a circle, we think it's new information and confirmation, which we see all the time on the news. Right? I can't believe now you can report on something someone said on Twitter to me, that's like reporting what someone wrote in the bathroom.

Like it's not real, like it's not the real person's name. That's not evidence. Grew up with scientific methods, but to me that's can really affect us. So, I think that's really powerful. And what I always see, I think about this if someone says, oh, they're an overnight success. It's absolutely true as long as you count the 10 years of preparation, all the hard work before. If you completely discount all of the hard work. Yeah. They are totally lucky. If you erase everything.

You very rarely find people that succeed, having done nothing intentional that's Forest Gump, like that's a fictional movie. Every single person, like I have a friend from high school, he won the Super Bowl and he wasn't the best player in high school. I remember one time we were in the gym. I have two strong memories of him. One time he was defending me because people were making fun of me for being fat in the gym. He's like at least he's here.

None of the other nerds are here even trying. And I was like, I guess that's a compliment. Then the second thing he said was he goes, I'm not the best player right now. I'm not the biggest guy here he goes, but I've got the longest bones. I'm going to keep getting stronger as I get older. And I was like 17 and he won the Super Bowl. Like he was on a winning Super Bowl team. It was amazing to have that vision.

So, he was willing to stay in the course, cuz there were so many guys in my high school who we all thought would go pro we were one of the top high school teams in the country, like number eight, number seven, that kind of team. But he was the one guy who made it through and he had that vision. And this ties back into what we've been talking about. It's like starting your podcast. Most people quit after eight episodes. Jeremy Slate: Yeah.

Jonathan Green: Everyone thinks that for me, it's always been a success. I'll tell you about my book. My big book came on 2016. I gotta review a week before it was coming out. They were like I don't think you want me to post this review cuz your book is trash. I was on the floor crying. So, I really it was really devastating to me to get like a really bad review. I'm lying there on the floor. I'm like, I got two choices.

I can pull the book. I can just give up. I can let go or whatever, or I can rewrite the book over the next, like 72 hours, push out a new edition. Now I got trouble for that. You're not supposed to rewrite the book the week before when you've done pre-release. If you do that, Amazon, banns you from doing a pre-release again for a year. Cause they go, no, you can't tell us that like the day before, but I pushed out the new version.

I send it back to that person. They like, it's still pretty terrible. I was like, oh man, okay. Now I know it's you, not me because that book has 500, five star views of masses has turned my business around, but you're gonna have those moments where bad things happen. That's why I really like the book Black Swan , Ray says bad things are gonna happen. I don't know what they are, but unpredictable, bad things are gonna happen. Something happens in real estate about every 10 years.

It's like the savings and loan scandal, then it's the next scandal. And then it was the 2008 thing. And then this time, I guess it was the pandemic messed up all the real estate's up. People bring him on the news all the time they go, you predicted this. He goes, I didn't predict this. I just know bad stuff happens. Bad stuff is inevitable. It kind of ties back what we're talking about people we look after we think nothing bad happens to them, but it's not true.

It's not that nothing bad will happen to you. It's how you adapt to the situation or how you react to it. That's the thing you're in control. If you can't affect cuz bad things can happen. Jeremy Slate: Yeah. Jonathan Green: Friends are gonna say something bad to you. You're gonna be in a natural disaster like I was. No control over that. All I control is how we react to it, how we survive and how we live afterwards and how we live every day differently afterwards.

That's what you can do. And that's where the power is. And the cool thing about that is anybody can do that. Jeremy Slate: Yes. Jonathan Green: I've seen people who had these terrible childhoods and it makes them into the most successful people. I have a friend who's a lawyer, his childhood, his like child abuse stories are insane. They're insane. He was like four. He walked himself into the ER and the doctors go you should be dead.

And he's now I can't even say what he does for a career. Cuz people know who he is instantly, he's that successful. Jeremy Slate: Wow. Jonathan Green: And he's completely motivated by vengeance. He's like I wanna become the most successful person in the world to get vengeance against my dad who abused me as a child. So, the craziest things can motivate you. And it's a very sad story, like breaks my heart, but wow. So many people say, oh, I have a bad childhood.

So, that justifies inaction. So, it's not the thing in my experience. It's how we react to it. Jeremy Slate: Jonathan, that was a whole podcast, man. Cuz those were so many good points in that section. Like I literally in my head and making a list of each thing I wanna say to what you're said, cuz there's literally three things that you said there that are just. Damn man.

Like the first is I wanted to touch on the last thing you said there he says he wants to be the most successful person in the world because of what happened to him. Dude, there is no better revenge than to flourish and prosper. There's no better revenge than to do the best you can do and be the best you can be because you know what people that hurt us, people that are mean to us, they wanna see us fail.

They wanna see our lives ruin and you know what your vest vengeance is succeeding. And I think that is the greatest thing you can ever do to somebody to make them wrong. Sorry. As, as much as that is, is to do well and to do great in life. So, that's one thing. And the other thing that you mentioned about is you mentioned about the friend that you didn't know, in high school, he said, it wasn't the best and things like that. I think it's interesting.

And he won the Super Bowl. I think it's interesting as I would love to see like a study of first round picks in all major sports. Because if you look at the number of first round picks that are just total bus, because they think they're the best, they know they're the best. And when you think you're the best and when you know you're the best, you don't work hard anymore.

You don't put in the work, you don't show up, you don't have that learner's mentality and that's really vital. And the other thing too is you talk about being overnight success, man, like internet marketing lies to us and people just think that everybody's gonna hit a home run in the first time up. It's about hard work day after day. And it's just, that's what it's about, man. Jonathan Green: Yeah. I think that's so true.

Consistency is in my experience, the thing that everyone who succeeded has in common. They are the people that go to practice earlier, stay the latest, the people that put in the most hours that the people work consistently, cuz it's very easy to work really hard for two days and work a bunch on a project. But gosh, the number of people who yeah. They give up. Because they don't get those results soon enough.

When I started out in this business with a lot of people that had a lot more heat than me. I really struggled for the first about year, two years of building my business. Like I live in my mom's basement for a year, and then I lived on my friend's couch in a studio apartment for another year and a half. It was two years before I could afford rent on a two-bedroom apartment with that same friend. But people think that there's no hard times. Jeremy Slate: Yes.

Jonathan Green: That's the problem with what we project. Is that you have to get up early, you have to stay up late, you have to do those other things. And this is the lesson I learned in my twenties when I realized I was like, I'm not very good looking, okay, I'm in the middle of the road at best, or I'm ugly at worst depends who I'm talking to. Nobody ever says, wow, you're super handsome.

But I realized if I start earliest, plan the soonest and put the most effort into every person I meet. That's how I met my wife. Everyone's oh, you met her tonight. I'm like, no, I was planning this for two weeks. And it's that preparation. I said, oh, I don't have these other things, but I can out prepare anyone. Jeremy Slate: Yes. Jonathan Green: Like when I'm getting dressed to go out and not anymore now I'm don't care. Cause I'm so married.

But I used to spend two hours like planning the outfit, putting everything together, getting myself in the mood because I have to compete with people that are richer than me, smarter than me, taller than me, better looking than me, but preparation can beat all of that in every area of business. It's the person who's most prepared and is most consistent, can really succeed. I think that's a really powerful lesson. That's why podcasting can be such a cool thing. Just gotta stick with.

If you have nine episodes, you beat out most people. And like Seth Godin said to you and Chris Boss said to me, he's I don't do anyone unless they've got 200 episodes because they don't wanna be on a podcast that doesn't go anywhere. And that makes sense to me. They don't wanna be episode seven when you quit on episode eight, because then it is a waste of their time.

So, knowing people go the distance and that's the only thing a lot of people look for, they don't even look for, if your podcast is any good, they look for, if you're still doing it, if you're still fighting, still putting the effort. So, I think that's a powerful lesson to end on. I think people should really check out your book. Where's the best place to find you online. They can find your book again. It's called Unremarkable to Extraordinary .

We of course put a link to it in the show notes. Where's the best place to find you online, which of your many websites is the one they should go to? Jeremy Slate: If they're interested on like the podcast side of things, it's @jeremyryanslate.com, the company side is @commandyourbrand.com. And as you mentioned, the book is coming out on June 7th. So, right now we are in pre-order. They can get it either on Barnes and Noble, Amazon, or anywhere books are sold. Jonathan Green: That's amazing.

That's been a really great episode. Thank you so much for being here. And the last thing I could ask you is if there's one piece of advice you could give yourself when you were starting like a really long time ago, what would that be? The beginning younger version of yourself? What would you tell him? Jeremy Slate: Let it get ugly faster. I don't know. Like to me that would be it.

I think sometimes we like want everything to be perfect and that's the reason we don't start. And it's the reason we don't go where we want to go, be willing to screw it up, be willing to screw it up more often. Cuz the more you do the closer you get to winning. So, to me, that's what I would tell myself. Jonathan Green: That's amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Appreciate having you on another amazing episode of the Serve No Master podcast.

Jeremy Slate: Hey, thank you so much for having me, man.