SNM279 Become a Professional Podcast Guest with Jason Cercone

Jonathan Green: Become a professional podcast guest with today's expert Jason Sircone on today's episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Book arbitrage profits. If you want to start the ultimate side hustle, I can't recommend book flipping. Enough used books are continually going up in value. If you want to learn how to flip books and make six and even seven figures, please join our free training@servemaster.com forward slash BAPS. Announcer: Are you tired of dealing with your boss? Do you feel underpaid and underappreciated?

If you want to make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to Serve No Master Podcast, where you'll learn how to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep. Presented live from a tropical island in the South Pacific by bestselling author Jonathan Green. Now, here's your host. Jonathan Green: Now, I'm passionate about podcasting. I've been running this podcast since 2016, which is hard to believe.

It's now in its 7th year, and podcasts, there's more now than ever before. For a while, it seemed like the market was shrinking and it was coming down to just the really popular ones. But what happens, at least in my experience, is that one podcast gets one of those multimillion dollars or 100 million dollar deals, and everyone goes, oh, podcasting is back.

And so everyone gets into it, and it's a growing market, and it's very interesting to see that there are a lot more secondary services, whether it's podcast coaching, podcast training, podcast matchmaking services, podcast editing. There's so many other businesses surrounding podcasting. I'd love to know how your journey began, Jason, and how you became passionate and decided podcasting is really going to become the centerpiece of your business model. Jason Cercone: Well, for me, it wasn't anything secondary. It was just the act of producing the audio content.

I did radio back in college. I majored in communications. Thought about pursuing a career in radio after college, and it didn't pan out the way I was hoping it would. So it was more of a light pursuit that I didn't really lose much sleep over it.

But when podcasting became more of a thing, and I honestly didn't even really know what it was, I was at an event, and there was a guy there doing a live podcast, and I went up to him and said, what is this? What is a live podcast? And he told me all about it, and that really got me interested.

I said, that sounds really there was even after that, there was still a little bit of a gap between that and then when me and my friends started our show. But I'm with you, Jonathan. I feel like once something gets big, that's when all the secondary services and products start to come along to support it.

I think that's how I can know, or at least how I define something hitting the mainstream, because I worked in the beer industry before I got into podcasting full time and craft beer was a pretty big thing when I left. And before I started, it was like there was groundswell of all these new little breweries popping up and all of a sudden all the blogs and websites and services that help these brands promote and make better beer, they're all starting to pop up.

So very similar in podcasting. But yeah, for me it was all about just creating fun audio. And here we are today. I was able to morph it into helping others do the same on both the host side and the guest side. Jonathan Green: Yeah, I think that what's interesting about podcasting is there's no barrier to entry.

If you want to be on the radio, you have to get hired by a radio station or you have to get airtime because there's only limited bandwidth, there's only so many stations, or you can have an internet radio station which is like so hard to be found. It's like one of the hardest things because it's not really in the radio, because people can't listen to me. Radio means I can listen to my car.

So what really interests me is the business of podcasting, the process of people who approach it strategically, which is a very small percentage of the population. And I'm certainly in that. I just always done my podcast as a way of creating content for my audience and never really thought lot about it as its own business model. And I know a lot of people are that way, a lot of people listen. My market in the worlds of internet marketing, we're just like, oh, our audience wants content.

This is a good way to make a lot of content. But more and more people as I've switched to the interview model, my 1st 200 episodes were solo episodes. I just couldn't keep up with it. I started off doing five episodes a week all by myself and it's so much content to put out with all the other things I do, I just couldn't do it.

Switch to the interview model means right now I'm like ten months ahead on content instead of one week ahead and worrying that I'm going to make enough and get edited in time. So my question is really, what are some of the biggest mistakes people make when it comes to even understanding the business of podcasting? When people say, oh, I'm going to start a podcast or I'm going to start doing podcasting appearances, what are some of the really big mistakes people make early on in their journey?

Jason Cercone: I would say the first mistake is not defining why you're doing it. Whether you're starting your own show or you're looking to make guest appearances, if you don't have a clear why defined, it makes it very hard to stay on path to get to where you want to go. So I think that you have to do that with everything in life that transcends podcasting. If you don't know your why, you're really going to be lost.

But I think from the standpoint of getting started, many people have many myths and misconceptions about what podcasting is all about and what it will do for you. You see that Joe Rogan payday that he got from Spotify and think, oh, well, that's in the cards for me.

I'm going to follow that path, thinking it's going to come instantaneously, not realizing that the Joe Rogan timeline to get to that payday was like 20 some years, including a lot of probably stand up comedy routines in front of ten people just like all the other comedians in the world and get started. It's like a process that has to be followed and there is some strategy involved in that.

So not just having your own why, but also understanding the expectations that are in front or that you have for what this medium can deliver you. And I think another one is this false sense that the world's going to show up and listen to your podcast or listen to your message if you're a guest on a podcast just because. And that's not the case, Jonathan.

You've been podcasting for a while, so it takes time to build a loyal audience and you have to be consistent with the product that you put in front of them. So growth takes time. And if you come into this thinking that you're just going to whip out a few episodes and everyone's going to listen and then you can monetize it by putting all of these ads in place, it's really not going to lead to much.

And unfortunately, podcasters and podcast guests to a degree get fixated on download metrics, thinking that's the be all, end all, to use your show title serve all master metric that defines success in this space and it could not be further from the truth. There are so many other dynamics and so many other things that we need to be looking at that truly define what podcasting is all about.

So having an understanding of these things before you jump in the pool can help you get built or help have a foundation in place that allows you to build over time successfully. Jonathan Green: Yeah, I've noticed a lot of podcasts lately advertise their rank on listener notes, which as far as I can tell, every single podcast in the world is in the top 10%.

And I know the download numbers of a lot of the shows in the top 2.5 and I'm like, wait a minute, there's such a big difference because one of my friend's show gets like 6 million downloads a month and he's only one percentage point higher than my show. That's not right. That lets me know that we are so far apart. That's just crazy. He's one of the most popular shows in the world. How could I possibly be at that same tier when that's his full business?

Totally different business model and yet people are really pushing that model or they're listening how many downloads they get or these different things. And a lot of it is this we forget that there are so many podcasts. Every single guest on my show probably has a podcast. Every single person in my industry has a podcast. Everyone out there has a podcast. And it means it's really hard to find new shows even when I'm specifically looking for a show I want to listen to.

Sometimes I search by name in my favorite podcasting app and it still can't find that show. It's like that crowded of a market. So part of it is that the way to grow and it's something I only recently learned is just to be on as a guest, you have to get on a couple of hundred shows so that cumulatively you get noticed.

And the challenge with that is if there's a bunch of people on that circuit, sometimes I see the same people on all the same different shows and that's not what you want either because then it starts to become ubiquitous, right? So that's the challenge is that if you go in without knowing the business or understanding what works and what doesn't, and you can end up doing what a lot of other people are doing.

One of my challenges is as a host is like, well, how do I make my interviews interesting? And I always look for an episode where by the end of it someone says, wow, no one's ever asked me that before because at least then I know, okay, there's something interesting because it's so easy to ask the exact same questions and that's where we get trapped in that. You end up creating an interview everyone else has done as well.

And that's the challenge is like, well, what can I do if I'm trying to be on 50 podcasts a week? I can't listen to a couple of episodes for each podcast. I can't do all of that stuff. But also I don't want to have the same interview when I'm on someone else's show. I want to always be asked different questions. That's why whenever I send a submission, I send completely different stuff to every single show.

That's more personalized because I don't want to have a repeat interview. Like I want each one to be people find me in different places to go, oh, this is something new, rather than, oh, I've heard this episode before. So there's this danger because of the crowdedness in the market, I've got to be on a bunch of shows, but how can I be different each time? So I'm also interested in what's the right way to try and get on shows.

Like when I get probably 20 requests a week, maybe 30, for people to be on the show and some of them just turn me off right away. One of the things that I really don't like is a really long description, or when people say they listen to my show and they probably haven't, or even if they have, I'm like, wow, that's like a lot of extra effort. Okay, if they really did great.

But what I always look for is, first, again, do they have an existing audience? Do they have a large enough audience that I'll pay attention right, that other people are already paying attention? So it's worth saying. And I know that seems unfair because it's like, oh, you have to have a large audience to get on a show with an audience. And it's not really that because the second thing I look for is something about you that's interesting.

And I'm on a lot of the websites that help you find podcast guests and get on podcasts to just be out there. Since I switched to this business model and a lot of people's profiles have the same questions.

The number of people whose profile says I left corporate America to start my own business is like everyone's profile, every single profile on LinkedIn whose person who's been fired switches to I'm a coach who left corporate America and you have to put something really different so I can tell if I'm going to like you or not. And unfortunately, I think that there's become this one profile out there that everyone liked and everyone's copied it or something. So I would love to know your thoughts on that.

Those are some of my experiences when I'm looking at someone's profile going, well, what makes you interesting, what makes you unique, that's what I'm looking for. If you don't have an audience already, then I look for the second thing. And I've had people on the show who probably have ten followers, but their story is, I know my audience will like their story. So that's kind of a little my experience.

But when you're helping people to get on shows, what are the things you tell them to do and the things you tell them to avoid, like common mistakes? Jason Cercone: Well, it starts with understanding the content that you're going to be contributing to and knowing if you can add value. And that's going back to the entire research process of like you said, people will say they've listened to shows. Some will.

And that's something that I encourage because if you don't know if you can add value to that show, you're wasting time. You're just spraying and praying, hoping that someone's going to respond to your outreach. This is one of the biggest mistakes that so many people make when they're looking to make these guest appearances.

Now to throw a net over everything that you just said, Jonathan, in regards to standing out and being interesting and getting these guest opportunities and making them more of a realistic thing in your world, you have to define your story and define your brand, and there are ways that you can make yourself stand out, I think. And as a podcaster. I can sympathize because I know I'm getting inundated with responses or with recommendations.

And the one commonality that I always seem to see is that in one way, shape or form, either the guests themselves, if they're doing their own outreach or if they have an agency doing the communication for them, they are all assuming that they are a perfect fit for my show. And they're saying it. I'm a perfect fit for your show. How the hell do you know that? We've never spoken. This is the first interaction that you and I have had.

How do you know you're a perfect fit for me? I need to know what you can bring to the show. Every time I do an outreach to anybody that I want to be on their show, if I find value in their message and I want to be a contributor to their catalog, I reach out to say hello, I introduce myself, and I only say, I'm never assuming that I'm a perfect fit. Your content and your audience more than I ever will.

But from what I've discovered so far, it seems that our values are aligned, and I would love to contribute. If you're looking for somebody, that's a statement that stands out, because I'm not making this assumption based on any past accolades that I have that I'm perfect for your show. And then I give a very brief description of who I am and what I do, and then I let you make the decision. If you feel that my message makes sense for you and your listeners, I'm in.

Let's do this. If you don't, that's okay. Not everybody is going to be a perfect fit, but that's where it comes into this whole one profile, one story. No one's standing out. It's all just everybody swimming in the same pool with nobody wearing a red swimsuit. That stands out. It's a tough world because there are a lot of ways to look at it where you would say, oh my God, this seems so saturated and there's so many people doing this.

But if you can clearly define your niche and clearly define what you're doing, and it's the whole who you are, what you do, where you want to take people, and how you're going to get them there. If you have a very clear and unique way of defining that, that's going to get you a leg up immediately.

And then communicating with value and not making this assumption that you're a perfect fit, you have value to provide, but you have to put that in front of somebody and then let them make the decision.

I think that one statement of saying, I'm not assuming I'm a perfect fit, but I know I can bring value if you see it too, I think that makes people stand out because there's so many people doing outreach that just assume they're perfect, and it's a different way of looking at it. But I think once you can get into that habit of just putting yourself out there in a very unique way, that's what's going to make podcasters say, yes, we want to work with you.

Come record with us. Jonathan Green: Yeah. As someone who has my own show, and just now, I just said, you know what, I'm going to start doing appearances. I've done probably five guest appearances the last six years. It's never been a part of it. And I'm like, okay, I talked to someone else in last week's episode, and they convinced me, oh, you know what?

Maybe it makes sense if it's strategic to get on a lot of shows, even small shows, because I was a guest on a show that got really big ten years later, and people go and look to the back catalog so those things can pay off if the show keeps going, right? There's a lot of benefits there. And also, it's a great way to get in front of people that actually listen to podcasts. So there's a lot of goodness in it.

And I try to, when I'm sending out my messages, do the things that I like to receive. And so I was thinking about what you said. The first thing is, I know that I hate ten to 20% of people who message me, and I can't tell you why. Look at their profile. Let's be real here, right? Sometimes someone said, you look at their picture, you go, I just do not like this person. And sometimes they can't figure out why, right?

But it's like, well, you don't want to have an episode like that. And every once in a while, I had an episode last that will never release. I recorded it last week, and at the end of it, she was like, this isn't going to get released, is it? And I was like, no, I don't know what happened here. And in my heart of hearts, I was like, it was so bad. There was no connection. She was using all words that I don't understand.

It was all corporate speak, and I couldn't tell if it was real or not. I don't know what was going on. It was just bad for both of us. We could feel it. It doesn't happen that often, right? But it's probably happened to me three or four times out of hundreds episodes and seven or she said it was her first time we'll see. But that's the thing that we pretend that everyone's going to like us.

And I think that's the problem is if you leave it there. I mean, I really hate when people write a really long message to me and they want me to read that really long email. So when I do outreach, I think I write a two sentence description. I'm like, here's four topics I can talk about if you check out my profile, if I'm a good fit, my bio or whatever my one pager is let me know. If not, it's cool as well.

So I do try to there because the assumption that you're a good fit is not true. And I know that a lot of people turn down being on my show, right? If I reach out to someone, not everyone says yes, and I guess they don't always say yes, and that's okay. You can't take it personally because maybe you're not the right fit.

And a lot of times someone is like, I've already had a guest that has the exact same expertise, or It's a direct competitor recently, or it's not going to be that interesting. Just happens to be that the last guest I recorded before you, it's also a guy in the same space as you. So I have to make this interview different, right? If I couldn't do that, I got to renber it or move it around.

But there's a lot to it that yeah, as a guest you don't know about, and everyone copies and pastes the same really long message. I'm like, if you're going to copy and paste it, just making something short, I'm going to read because all I'm going to do is go to your website and I can tell you, here's another red flag. Don't have broken links. Probably 60% of the people who outreach to me include at least one broken link.

Now, if you look, I'm so familiar with this because when I hire someone on fiverr for any website design stuff, 90% of people will send you a broken link. They'll go, oh, here's a bunch of the projects I work. I'm like, well, half these websites are dead. What is wrong with you? Don't send me dead links. But I see people who send they send a link to a website that's gone or something's broken or their website has been hacked. That happened today.

Someone said, your entire website is gone. That's a pretty big red flag for me. And these are really things that we don't think about that seem small, but they're so common and immediately makes you go, well, I don't know what's going on here. If you can't spell your own website name or if you can't link to the right Facebook profile or don't link to your TikTok, if you have 47 followers, just don't. If you don't have 100 followers on something, it's not worth mentioning.

And that's fine. My audience is 99% on my email list. It's not social media, so I'm totally fine with that. That's why it's in my message. I go, that's not my audience. Minus is email, minus is older. That's how I market. But there's just this communication. But it is this desire, like, how can I get someone to notice me when I send up this message? And I don't know if anyone maybe I'm the only one, but I never read the long messages.

I just go straight I read the first sentence, the last sentence. I go straight to the link. So I'm like, short message brevity is better because I'll know right away if you're the right fit or not. And sometimes today a bunch of shows where they only have female guests or where it's all about spiritual healing. That's not my niche. I don't know. I'm like, I'm not going to pitch to be on those shows, right? They got recommended. I get recommendations all the time.

This doesn't fit me at all. And I don't pitch those. And then sometimes I have to write a custom thing because it's really different. But I can talk about like, oh, this is just her work from home dads. I'm like, yeah, that's me. That's not what I normally talk about in my description, but that applies to me because I'm a work from home dad. So I think that there is, like you said, people copy and paste the same message, everything.

Oh, if I'm going to copy and paste it, everyone, it might as well be long. And it's like you can actually get away with more with a shorter copy and paste than with a longer because it's not so obvious. I think that's really important. And then just to move forward. Another thing that drives me crazy is, and I usually don't publish these episodes, is when people just keep saying their link throughout the episode.

I know that's from Radio PR, when I was in radio appearances at a PR training person, because on Radio, they'll edit you a lot. So you try to say whatever the name of your brand is or your website in a way that they can't cut it out, in a sentence that they can't edit out, but on podcasts where you know, at the end I'm going to let you here's a surprise at the event episode.

I let the guests say their website so you don't have to say it early. It happens on every episode. You don't have to sneak it in. So whenever that happens, it drives me crazy. And usually I don't publish it. I had a recent recording, I was like, I'm going to have to tell my editor to cut it out because the rest of the episode is good. But they said it a couple of times when you don't need to.

But there's this whenever someone's doing that, I know they're thinking too much about them and not as much about the audience. Jason Cercone: Exactly. Jonathan Green: Like, my job is to make you seem interesting. If I make Jason seem boring, that's not good for me. It's not good for me either, right? People are going to turn off the episode. My job is to make it amazing and interesting and to drive towards that destination. I'm always building towards something. So that's really important to me.

So I love to think about the most important thing, anything, is to avoid the big mistakes. So what are some other things that you as someone who has guests on your show and is talking to people, or even when people say, oh, I want you to help me find podcasts, what are things that immediately make you like, they just push you away, make you this is not the right fit or this episode is not working. What are the things that are your big red flags?

Jason Cercone: I've been very fortunate that I've only had, I mean, at least on my current podcast, one person that just went into sales mode for the whole spiel and was not thinking about the value of the audience. It was just mentioning their website, mentioning their link, and it wasn't good, it wasn't something I could publish because I knew that I wouldn't want to stand by that and I knew my audience wouldn't want to hear that. So it was very easy to make that decision.

But understanding how to maximize the entire experience of a podcast guest appearance is really what it's all about because at the end of the day, it's much more than just the interview. And I think that's something where many people get hung up on. I have to go on this podcast today and I have to put on the best possible performance so I can close a bunch of sales. And it's the only way this can be defined as a success. That's not what this platform is for.

Podcasting is about storytelling. And I could understand if you were given like a four minute window on a radio show where you did have only a very small, limited amount of time to get your point across and you wanted to use that time to get people to go to your website. And that comes off as annoying because it's all condensed into a quick four to five minute block. With podcasting, it's more long form, you have more of an opportunity to have a good conversation.

And having that good conversation is going to lead to much more success in a number of different ways. For one, your podcast interview, when it does go live, is going to be much more easier to consume because podcast listeners are going to show up and listen to a good conversation, something that provides new perspectives. They're not going to show up for an infomercial, they're going to tune that out immediately. And that's if it even happens to go live, that's at the podcaster's discretion.

But if they feel it's going to be something that ruins the integrity of their content, they may not even air that show. Let's say it does. If somebody tunes in and says, well, this is nothing but a person selling, I don't want to listen to this, they may turn that show off and never come back. And that's at a detriment. So having a good conversation allows you to interact with that person on the other side of the microphone.

You're creating great content that can impact their audience and then you're also beginning to cultivate a new relationship with somebody. And you never know, maybe they need exactly what you're selling because you showed up and you help them create great content that they can use to grow their show and push their efforts forward. Maybe they see you as the type of resource they want to be in business with. So now you're selling without selling.

So coming into it with a value driven mindset versus a transactional mindset makes all the difference in the world because it allows you to maximize what's available to you. And maybe if the person that you're interviewing with doesn't need you, but maybe they have five people in their circle that do, then they say, yeah, you've got to talk to Jonathan. Jonathan's got everything you need.

Even when the show goes live, you're getting that opportunity at the end, like you said, to promote what you're doing so people can follow you. And that's a mistake that we may get to screw it. I'll say it now. The calls to action are usually so sporadic that no one knows where to go.

So in order to get people to come into your world, so you can nurture them and continue to give them value, that will push them towards becoming a customer or becoming a loyal listener. If you're using podcasts as a method of getting more listeners onto your show, you have to give them a clear call to action.

When you wrap up, you can't say, find me on TikTok and Instagram and Facebook and every social media and maybe my website gets thrown in there and here's my ICQ handle. There's so much that people do and it becomes the cereal aisle. There's so much to choose from that people just say, I don't know what he's aiming at, I don't know what she's aiming at, I'm not going to follow any of this. And they just tune it out. Clear defined call to action.

Get people to one place and it should be a place that you own. Bring them to your website. That's going to allow you to control the narrative, give them a way to opt in for something free. So now you have them on your email list and then you can continue to provide value to them that way. So when I talk about strategy, this is what I mean. It's not just about the interview.

It's about going at this with the right mindset to maximize the entire experience from that first correspondence all the way to when the interview goes live and beyond. Because if you do this right, you'll have cultivated a new relationship that could lead to a number of big wins in your life. Jonathan Green: Yeah, I think that's so important. Kind of have two things I really love talking about. The first is, yeah, I hate when I listen to a podcast at the end.

It's like leave a review on Stitch or leave a loon itunes, leave a review on Spotify, leave a review on Apple. Like whatever, all these different things. Like, no one's going to do that. You're asking me to do 15 things. They can't remember them all. So I'm a big believer in that. I think the second thing is that this is where a lot of people mess up sales. And this is what I do as someone who writes, written a lot of books.

I've written hundreds of books. I ghost write for a lot of people in my industry. And they always say, like, how are you going to make people see that I'm an expert? I'm like, no one cares. People watch CNN and find an expert. Don't fall that expert to Fox News, right? And then they don't fall back to MSN, and they'll fall back to I don't need the news channels. I don't watch the news. I don't know. But those are three news channels I've heard of, right?

They follow the person they like, whichever channel they like, they listen to whatever expert they bring. And so I always teach people, like, when I write your book, my job is not to make you seem smart. My job is to make people like you. Because guess what? Nobody likes smart people. If you're so smart, I can't understand what you're talking about. No one's going to like you. My job as a podcast show is not to make you seem like a smart guy, Jason.

It's not going to help anyone, right? No one goes, hey, why did you marry your wife? She's really smart, right? That's your favorite thing about her. Of course not, right? No, I like spending time with my wife, right? I like spending time with my friends. And so most people, as you intimate, as you were talking about, when you sell without selling it's, if your expertise is going to come out, if you know your stuff, you know your stuff, right? That will come out.

But if you're focused on, oh, what makes me likable? And this is so important because we often don't think about stories and what stories are interesting or not interesting. So many people, I'm sure you can imagine, but people, when they probably go to you, they go, here's my ten best stories. Like, nine of those are terrible because I listen to so much from a client. I'll listen to a client talk for 8 hours. I had a client who sent me 18 hours of recordings.

I was like, I can use six minutes of this. The rest of this is unusable. Because it's just, well, that's the best answer, that it's boring or it's the wrong structure. There's some types of stories that are great in person that are very visual, that don't work written down. And this is the same thing. Some of your stories are going to be really appealing to some of you, off putting.

And the stories you tell in a podcast are different than the ones you would tell in a book. And I think that people come in without thinking about that. What does the story demonstrate about you? And if you focus on likability and confidence, then kind of the other things will come into place. And that's what people remember more than anything else, right? Oh, I heard Jonathan on the show. He had an amazing story about X.

That's what they remember, not oh, he taught me three great tips about how to be a better podcaster. That's why I try to mix in asking technical questions with also personal stories. And like for yeah, I'm when I'm interacting with someone, I'm looking for what makes me interested. And here's a little secret you can tell anyone who's listening to my show if I like a guest or not based on the length.

If I do not like a guest, I'm trying to get out there by minute 20. And if it's a good one, I'll stay 63 times as much time based on if I like the guest, if I'm having a good time. And sometimes I'm just not. And I don't know if everyone I'm probably more guilty of this than most people because I've been in this full time business for almost 14 years now. I realized this month is actually my 13 year anniversary of being self employed.

And guess what? It's really hard to pretend that someone's interesting when they're not, right? Sometimes the shorter episodes, because they gave all the good information and it's a tight episode, but if I'm having a good time, I'm going to keep hanging out. And that's why some of the bigger shows are 1 hour or 4 hours. You can tell there's a reason it got cut short, right? It's a bad guess. It gets cut really short and that's not good.

And it's like, well, how can I get the longer thing? And it's like, give longer answers, share more information, make it interesting, say things that people think you shouldn't say. Like, I got on a really big podcast early on. They did a couple of really cool tricks. They were in a different time zone, so I was drinking, so I was really relaxed. And they were recording before we started. This is back before recordings would announce you're being recorded, right?

So I was like, hey, guys, when's this started, it started 20 minutes ago. I thought that was really cool because you're so relaxed, right? You're just being yourself. And I told this really long story about how I really love to date women that look like praying manuses. It's a really crazy story. I mean, I'm married now. I don't know if my wife looks like a praying manus, right? But there's a story I told and it was like really interesting because no one says that, right?

They're like, oh, I'm like, I look for shoulders. I'm into the whole thing, right? I don't want to talk my whole day in life now. That's not what the show is about. But it was being revealing, right? Being something that's different and unique. They were like, that's crazy. No one ever talks like that. And I was like, they got to bring something different. And I think that's so important for someone who's thinking about getting wanting to be on a show.

It's like, why should I have you on my show? And I hate when people are like, oh, I can entertain your audience. No, that's not your job. That's my job. My job is to find the entertaining. I want you to have something really unique that you're good at, or you have a large audience so I know you know how to present, or you have a crazy story that's very interesting.

And if you've done any of those things right, it's like you push yourself outside the envelope, then I want to have you on the show. I never get someone as all three. You're not going to get someone who hits every box, right? But yeah, it's amazing how often people, they're caught up in the wrong part of it, which is expertise rather than likability.

So I think what you're saying is really helpful, that people I just think there's a lot of old school PR training that's all about slipping in the link and getting the sale and trying to close a thing and whatever. And when you do that, it just creates this strange conversation. Like, I can tell some people are trying to get me when they're on my show to hire them as a coach. And it's strange to me. I also know there's some podcasts.

Here's the thing I really hate. I really hate podcasts that they book me, I fill out the form and then pay a bunch of money to jump to the head of the line. And I'm like, are you kidding me? Why didn't you tell me that before I filled out the form? I did one of those shows today and I just filled it out anyways. I was like, I'm not paying I don't mind waiting ten weeks to be on the show, whatever.

Because I always feel like those shows have really small listenerships, the shows that are, like, selling you on every phase of the model. Because, no offense, but I don't see you as a customer. I just don't. I see you as a guest on my show. And that's not what I want to create. Is it? Like, you paid for me to talk because it impugns the ethics of the show, right?

If you paid to be on the show, I'm not going to ask you the same questions I would if you hadn't. And it just creates this whole thing that I really don't like. But I want to talk about things that will help me. What are things that podcast hosts? Because we always talk about guests. Everyone wants to talk about guests.

I want to talk about what hosts are doing right and wrong, because I see a lot of shows that have I mean, I'll just be honest, I see a lot of shows with artwork I hate. I see the artwork and I go this show is bad and it might be good, but it's strange how much we judge a book by its cover. This is why as an author, I've written like six books on book cover design. I've created like four courses on it.

One of my products is 1000 templates that I had made based on because I'm so tired of bad book covers. And I feel that a lot of people their podcasts cover and they just don't get it and I don't know why. And it's so important because you really get judged by the image. Let's be honest, people really judge you by that podcast square.

It's so critical and I feel like a lot of people drew it with a crayon or they messed around with it and they don't update it. Now I have tried to update mine a couple of times and I get a bunch of new versions and they're never better than the old one. I would like to have an updated one. I played around with a really cool blue design but it made it look like it was a snorkeling podcast.

I was like, oh well, I love it, but it doesn't have the right message. But what are other things that podcasts just get wrong out the gate and it's fixable? Ideally, things they can fix. Jason Cercone: That's a very easy one. I think the COVID art should look somewhat professional, if not completely. I mean, let's remove the word somewhat and to say professional doesn't mean you have to go out and spend thousands of dollars.

Canva is a free platform that will help you create very good looking cover art. There are also some great services out there that will do it for you for a very low cost. To me, when I see bad cover art, this is not as consistent as gravity, but it's pretty damn close. When you start digging in a little deeper, you can tell the TLC, if it was indicated in that cover art that this is ugly. This has no attention to detail.

It doesn't really define and tell me what the show is about. You can almost bet when you get into reading what the show description is about and what the titles of the show are and then what the show notes are, it's not going to be indicative of what that podcast is all about. And there will often be misspellings and poor grammar and things that can be very fixable. You have to take your podcast seriously, especially today.

And I'm speaking from experience when I first started this eight years ago, our first podcast, yeah, I'm a stickler for this stuff, so there was attention to detail, but we still did not know what we were doing, so we had to learn on the fly. And one of the big mistakes we made out of The Gates was not properly planning and putting a niche in place. Me and my friend did a beer podcast because that was the industry that I was working in at the time.

But we didn't clearly define what we wanted to talk about. We didn't make it something that the one ideal listener would tune in and listen to and absolutely fall in love with. Identifying that Avatar up front is huge. Understand who you're speaking to. Do not get hung up on trying to have a global audience because you will never have it. And again, I talked about expectations before. It's huge. It's big in this space too.

You have to understand that you are building something that is going to communicate. It has global reach, but you have to be very targeted in who you're speaking to. And then you're going to start attracting that person and everybody like that. And the tighter you can get with your niche, the better off you're going to be. Because in this podcast world, if you're speaking to everybody, you're speaking to nobody. You have to tightly define who you're going after.

And like I said, the tighter you can get, the better off you're going to be. The soapbox that I've been on lately and this is something that is absolutely within the control of every single podcaster out there and it's free. Be more compelling. I compare podcasts. I tell guests this. Your guest appearance is like a trailer to a movie. People will go to the movies they're introduced to probably anywhere between seven to ten new movies that are coming out before the actual movie ever shows up.

And that's going to say, OOH, that looks good, like it's planting seeds because they want you to come back and watch the next movie that you're going to like. That's what your interview is all about. Your guest appearance is all about planting those seeds and giving people the trailer. And then they follow your call to action and they come over to your website and they fall in love with you. And that's how the story goes. That's how you want the story to go.

If the podcast content isn't compelling, no one's going to give a damn. They're going to walk out. It's like a bad movie. They're going to leave. They have no reason to get emotionally invested in that podcast and they can't get in line with you as a character, as in a more business sense, a realistic resource that can help them grow. So they're going to turn their attention elsewhere. So you have to be thinking on a deeper level than just asking surface level questions.

So if you're building a show format and you're looking to get powerful responses and you're looking to bring the best possible content to your audience, you can't ask an author when they join you on your show, what was it like to write a book? Because that's surface level, that's something they've answered hundreds of times and more than likely have a very canned response to, and it's just not interesting.

But if you ask them when you were writing your book, I talk to authors all the time and they're always talking about how difficult the creative process is. When you were writing, was there ever a point that you were so frustrated with everything that you had just written that you just want to delete the whole damn thing and start over? That's a more compelling question.

Now, whether that's happened or not, that author may have something adjacent to that, and then they can talk about it and tell a story that maybe they've never told before. And Jonathan, you had mentioned that before. That's my favorite thing to hear. No one's ever asked me that before. Let me tell you a good story, because from that, you know, you've got them talking about something they don't normally get to talk about. Now you've got your little sound clip.

So when you promote the show to your audience through social media or email or however you promote, you can use that and say, I've got a breaking story from this person. They've never talked about this before. They're talking about it for the first time on my podcast. You have to think on this higher level with your content. And as a guest, you can help.

Because whether it's a one sheet, whether it's a profile online on a number of different platforms, like we connected on Podmatch, which is the one I swear by, you can use that section of your profile to ask conversation starting questions. Provide that to the podcaster. If a podcaster knows the direction they want to take their show, they're experienced and they look at you and they know where they want to go, great.

But if they're struggling a little bit and you have questions lined up that will elicit a powerful response, it's going to make the show content better and it allows you to stand out and truly bring value to the mic. And that will make that podcaster better because now they're getting better at asking those questions and having those conversations. It's better content for the audience at the end of the day, which is what it's all about. So much value can be gained from that.

So I see profiles all the time that have questions like, ask me about this, tell me about yourself. No, that's the boilerplate stuff that happens. You don't need to use that section for those type of questions. Use it to really serve up some great content that when the host asks you, you can knock it out of the park and hopefully they take a queue and they join the conversation and ask a follow up question and keep it going. So it's more of an organic flow.

Like I said, this has been my soapbox here for the past few months, actually. I just gave a presentation about this. I'm hoping to give it on many other stages. If you're not thinking about the level of captivation when it comes to your content is that a word, captivation? I don't we'll use it.

You have to be thinking higher because to get somebody invested in your show just because of the mass abundance of choices they have for podcast listening consumption, you have to think higher level, higher level conversations. Make it really stand out, make it as engaging as possible. That way that listener comes back next week, then they start binging through your catalog, and then they start telling all their friends and family and coworkers that they need to be listening to. That's how you grow a podcast.

Jonathan Green: Yeah, I was at a conference a few years ago, and this guy I'd known online, I go up and say, oh, it's nice to finally meet you in person. And he was so mad. He goes, We've met in person before. And I said, Maybe you need to be more memorable, which obviously wasn't a great way. It both things down. But that's what I always think about. I think about it so much with every guest. It's your job to be memorable.

It's my job to help you and ask great questions. But sometimes I ask someone a great question and they give a bad answer. And this is the same thing as like, when people submit the questions, like, you know, on my form, I always say, hey, what are six questions that I should ask you? Guess what? I've never asked more than two out of the six on every interview. I never will. Right? I'm looking for something interesting.

Every person's, if I look for, like, what am I interested in? And I'm always looking to find out, is this person really good at what they talk about? Do they really know their stuff? And if so, I invited you on because I'm like, I want to grow my show. I'm hoping you give me one idea that I can implement. So I'm specifically asking everything, oh, what can I do better? So I'm very intentional. This episode.

This episode is for me, sometimes an episode, I'm like, I want to learn something. And if someone else has run a podcast, they're going to learn too, because it's helped me grow into this a long time. I can do way better. So that's what I look for is those things. And some people make it really easy. And I've had some people on as well that I really don't like. And the episodes are amazing. So it's not always about me liking the person.

If they're really good at one thing, they're from a different school of thought, but the thing we're talking about, they're good at. I love that I'm okay with that because we're always going to have different schools of thought. But I think it's not always I don't think a lot of people have that approach, right? I wrote all my questions today and there were ten questions. I go, Ten is too many. Let me put five. Let me just put five that are really specific.

And my hope is not that someone asks all five that they'll see one of the five and go, oh, this is an interesting topic, right? Because there are things that I'm really interested in talking about and that are unique to me because yeah, I don't want to talk about. Here's another pet peeve of mine. If a movie description has the word road trip coming of age or more than they ever thought possible, I know I'm going to hate it.

I will not watch a movie with those in the description. That's my thing. I'm like, no, the worst. If it's a coming of age road trip where they learn more than they ever imagined, I'm out of there. That's the opposite of what I like. And I know that, right? And that's my avatar, right? That's who I am. I watch lowest common denominator movies. I'll read a book. If there's a robot on the COVID I'll read it. Especially if the robot's fighting or parachuting.

I've discovered if there's a picture of a robot jumping out of a plane, I will read it no matter what the book is about. Jason Cercone: There you go. Jonathan Green: I know myself. Yeah, but yes, so many people and I'll put up with it. When I'm working with a book client, I worked with a client recently. It took me about 6 hours of interviews to get to a story that I was like, this is the star of the book.

I'm not going to do that with someone who's not paying me, right? Help me a little bit. If you're coming on the show for free, and I think that not that you should listen to every episode of my show if you're coming on my show, right? You should just listen to what podcast do you like and why do you like it, right? And see the things I like about that. Like, here's the secret.

When I was reading textbooks as a kid, I liked what was ever in the orange box or the blue box. Like the story about the farmer that was demonstrating the math lesson. That's what I liked. So that's what I fill my books with is that thing. And that's the same thing, that whatever you like, she part of your podcast. Like the things I like from podcasts, that's what I try to create. I don't listen to business podcasts. I listen to entertainment podcasts.

And I don't read business books. I read fiction books because it helps me bring something over. That's the entertainment part because it's supposed to be entertaining, not educational. People didn't come here. People went here to go to school. People not listening to a podcast to learn a whole bunch of stuff, maybe one tip, but mostly to get motivated and to feel good about something, right? And to get a sense of you.

But so many people are just trying to jump on as many shows as they can to talk about, to give the exact same interview, and they don't realize that, yeah, that's what I don't want. I want something interesting. When you got really fired up, you were on your soapbox. I was like, finally, now we got something exciting because this is what is going to pull people in.

Like, this is what pulls me in because I have strong opinions about a lot of stuff and that's what I want to hear about. Even if someone disagrees with me or I agree with them or don't agree with them, at least we have something anchored in reality, like something real to have a discussion about. So let's talk a little bit about your expertise. We haven't talked about specifically. What you do is you help people get on shows and use it to grow their brand.

And I know a lot of people are trying to do this. Very few people are succeeding at it. So let's imagine, let's be specific, right? I've decided I made a decision last week. I switched my Pod Match profile over to Guest because I'm a year ahead in content. I have the entire year of episodes recorded. I may up to two episodes a week, which means I'm only six months ahead. That's what I'm thinking about doing. That's another way to grow.

But that's the part for me is like, okay, I'm going to start appearing on shows. What are some things I can do strategically that most people are missing? We've talked about the actual content, but let's talk about big picture, like choosing the shows to go on approach to the appearance of. What are things that make the episode better for other people? Because I'm so used to being in this chair, trying to flip to your chair.

Jason Cercone: Well, again, you have to understand where you are and where is your message and your expertise going to be the most valuable. More than likely you have podcasts in that niche or adjacent to that niche where your ideal customer, your ideal target person is going to be listening. That's where you want to go. If you're just trying to go at any podcast that will bring you on as a guest, in many cases your message will fall flat.

So you have to do a little bit of due diligence. And whether you're doing this yourself or whether you have someone that does it for you, there are specific things that you want to look for. Ideally, is that they are creating content that is aligning with your area of expertise. So you can build on that type of content or give them a different spin.

And that might be where some people get thrown off, is that they see that somebody's talking about X, then they say, well, I want to come on. And talk about X. And sometimes a podcaster will say, okay, great. Other times they might say, well, we just talked about X. I don't want to talk about X anymore.

So if you can provide some reasons why you were very engaged with X, but also you can come on and talk about Y and Z, that's going to give them a good reason to include you in the conversation. So having an understanding of what the content is about and how you can add value to that conversation that's taking place on that show is huge. Now that you understand that this show is right for you, that outreach process, it's huge.

That's the biggest part, because this is where so many people miss, and it's because they're leaning on this list of accolades, thinking that's what's going to sell them as the ideal guest for this show. I'm a seven figure earner, and I have a Porsche in the driveway, and Merlin Olsen comes over to have dinner at my house three times a week, to quote anchorman. That's all great. If you've accomplished any big things in your career, that's phenomenal. Of course you want to be proud of that.

But what I'm seeing that as a podcaster, and I'm trying to evaluate whether it makes sense to bring you on as a guest. That doesn't tell me what kind of value you're going to bring to my show. I can see that you've accomplished some great things, but I can't make my decision off of that because I've got a ton of people communicating with me and saying the same thing. I need to know what's the specific story and reason that you want to come on my show?

Why do you see this as a good pulpit for you to extol the virtues of who you are, what you do, where you want to take people, and how you're going to get them there? And will we be able to work together to make this content come together collaboratively? If it's going to be a complete disconnect, the audience doesn't win when they hear it. You and I don't mesh, so we have no chemistry. Therefore, we can't cultivate a relationship.

Now, can all of this be determined on the first outreach? No. But if you come at me and say, I've listened to some content, I feel like there's some real value in the message you're bringing to the world. I'm looking to make guest appearances. I don't know if I'm a perfect fit for you, but let's at least explore the options of what we can do together, create some kick ass content. I can talk about this and this.

I know you've covered this on your show, and this is going back to what podcasters can do when you get niche down. If your show like for my show, not sure when this episode of your show, Jonathan, is going live, but by time, it is more than likely I will have niche down to personal brand development. My show has covered that. But there were also other aspects of branding and I realized that more value was coming from those personal branding conversations.

That's where I wanted to go. If you can get niche down, it makes it easier for someone to look at your expertise and say, yes, you fit. Come on in, let's have a great conversation. Let's rock this microphone and let's put something together that our audience is going to eat up. So when you're reaching out, you have to bring value to the mic. Or I'm sorry, you have to bring value to that message.

We're going to get the value in the mic in a second, but there has to be value in that message. It has to be genuine. It can't just be the copy and paste same message that you're sending to every single podcast out there. Put a little bit of thought into it, put a little bit of time into it. It's going to make you stand out. Now, let's assume you got that spot they want to bring you on the show.

Don't think that you're showing up to perform. Don't think that you're showing up to sell root everything you do in value. Be compelling, tell stories, do what you can to stand out. Have a good conversation. And when I say don't perform, I think that's one thing that psychs people out. And I've experienced this with people I've talked about. They think that they're talking to this massive global audience. In the moment, you're talking to one person, maybe two, if the podcast has multiple hosts.

This is a one on one interaction where you're just having a conversation with a like minded professional or a like minded individual who shares the same passions as you. You should be able to carry on a great conversation with someone that has a lot in common with that's just being a human. So you think of this as a coffee shop or two friends getting together to have a drink at the bar after work. You come into it with a better mindset.

You come into it with a much clearer approach of, this is what I'm here to accomplish today. It's about just having a great conversation. It's about making a connection with one person. Podcasting brings a lot of levity to the world because there's a lot of times where you might think, I don't deserve to be talking to this person. Look at everything they've accomplished. All I see is all these powerful things.

But in that moment, you're on the same level and you're just talking, you're just hanging out and you're putting something together that's going to be nurturing for the two of you, but also the audience when they hear it. So it's all about having the right mindset. When you come in, I'll end with this. There's a bunch of things I could go through and this is what I would go through if I was working with somebody one on one.

But I will say this, when the content goes live, do something with it. One of the biggest gripes that podcasters have is that when a guest or a guest has its great interview and they're so excited to put it out, but then it's radio silence when they put the show out, goes two ways. As the host of the show, I always ask, because I always try to flip this on its head, is what did you do to keep communication going with that podcaster?

Did you connect on social media? Have you been in touch with them? Have either of you had any touch points since the day you recorded and a lot of times well, no, we really haven't. Well, okay, of course they're not going to be as excited as they were the day they recorded with you. They've probably done 50 other interviews and they've had a lot of other things happen in their life. So it's just not the top priority anymore.

Even though it is for you, it's not for them. So you have to keep the communication going. As the guest, though, you're not doing anything with that content. You're missing a golden opportunity to show your audience why you are the resource that they need to continue to trust.

If you keep making these guest appearances and you're going on show after show and you're talking about all these great things that you do to provide value to the world and value to your community, they're going to know, okay, I made the right decision in following this person. Maybe, just maybe, the last guest appearance you made when you share it is the one that makes them say, I'm ready to buy, I'm ready to make a purchase.

I want to buy their book, buy their course, buy their product, buy their service. Because people don't make these decisions in one fell swoop. It takes time to nurture, takes time to develop that relationship so they can trust you. And you never know what element is going to make them say, I'm ready to take the next step. I want to take this relationship to the next level.

So if you've got all these great guest appearances out there and you're not sharing it with your audience, you're missing the whole point. And that's what I again, I've said the word strategy many times. That's what this is. It's not just showing up to talk for half an hour to an hour. There is so much value that can come from this.

That's one of the biggest misses I see because as a podcaster, I've experienced it and it just makes on my end, I'm like, well, I've got content that I can share and I know my audience will like it.

I don't know why this person doesn't feel the same way anymore, but sometimes I'll own that if I feel I haven't kept up my end of the bargain with the communication, but following that type of strategy, it's going to help you maximize the value you get from this and the value you put into it as well. Jonathan Green: I love it. I think that it's coming for a great landing. You've lasted the whole hour, which I didn't know was going to happen.

I love it and I think that this is going to be really helpful. People just give me some ideas for what I'm going to do to make my show better. I've certainly been thinking about this is that I'm bad about fault communication. I've been doing a lot improve that with my automations to remind me of stuff and people especially because I'm so far in advance, like who's going to remember a show episode that did six months ago. So this is great.

Thank you so much for being here, guys. This has been Jason Sircon. His website is enhanceyourauthority.com, of course I'll have it in the show notes, but I know no one ever looks at those. So guys, make sure it's go to visit. Jason, enhance your authority.

If you're thinking about getting into the podcasting game, it can be a big win or it can be a big loss if you approach it without a strategy, can kind of disappointing because oh, it didn't work out for me, but a lot of times it's because we didn't approach it from the right mindset. So I think that's been really helpful. Thank you so much for being here, Jason. I know people are going to love this episode, so thank you so much.

And any last thoughts as we close down? Jason Cercone: I appreciate the opportunity to get to talk with you and your audience, Jonathan. For everybody listening today, I will say from what I've learned about Jonathan so far, he's doing a lot to put just absolutely killer content in front of you on a consistent basis. So the least you can do, jump over to Apple podcasts and leave a review.

It's going to help him find more great listeners just like you and also continue to improve upon the podcast. As a podcaster myself, I know how much those reviews mean, so take a few seconds to let Jonathan know what you think of the show. Jonathan Green: What a great way to end. Thank you so much for being here, Jason. Another amazing episode of the Serve No Master podcast. Thank you for listening to the Serve No Master podcast.

Make sure to subscribe so that together we can achieve true freedom. Announcer: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Serve No Master podcast. Make sure you subscribe so you never miss another episode. We'll be back next week with more tips and tactics on how to escape the rat race. Please take a moment to leave a review@servnowmaster.com. Itunes. It helps the show grow and more listeners means more content for you. Thanks again and we'll see you next week.