SNM278 Podcasts are not the Podcast with Spencer Carpenter

Jonathan Green: Podcasts are not the podcast with today's special guest, Spencer Carpenter. Today's episode is brought to you by Descript. Every book, podcast and YouTube video that I publish is transcribed by Descript. I've used all of the competitors and nobody comes close to their quality and the price is the lowest in the business as well. If you want to speed up production. And grow your online business, go to slash Descript right now. Announcer: Are you tired of dealing with your boss?

Do you feel under paid and underappreciated? If you want to make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to Serve No Master podcast, where you'll learn how to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep. Presented live from a tropical island in the South Pacific by bestselling author Jonathan Green. Now, here's your host.

Jonathan Green : Now, obviously I've been running a podcast since 2016, so this is near and dear to my heart, but I often see people talk about almost like they're professional podcast guests. Like, I've been on 800 podcasts, I've been on 1500 podcasts, and I wonder if there are 1500 relevant podcasts and if the shotgun approach is even a good idea.

I know you come from the music industry world before entering the podcast world, so you have a different way of looking at it, but I'd love to hear how your journey began, how you got interested in podcasting and what your overall approach is to it when it comes to being strategic. Spencer Carpenter: Yeah, sure. So, as you mentioned, I started off in the music industry.

I started booking bands when I was 15 because my cousins wouldn't let me into their band, but I wanted to find a way to be involved, and so I started doing that, kept doing it and scaled that up to doing multi day music conferences and festivals. And I ran a couple of record labels and did artist management, talent management. But pretty much all along the way, I was dealing with that talent representation side of things.

And then when I found podcast, I was listening to people that were sometimes their backstory, said that I didn't do very well in school, I didn't really care about this subject or that subject, but I'm able to apply my skills and interests in this area. And I realized that those people are while they're just classified by what their job is, they're talented at what they do.

And I recognize unless you're someone like Mark Cuban or Richard Branson, entrepreneurs and business people are not really looked at like talent. And so I wanted to go out there and find and help the people that are talented at what they do. And especially with COVID shutting down the industry, I saw podcasts as a way for people that could not go to conferences or expos or in person meetups as a way to perform.

So that's my background and how I got started in this and yeah, that was the value I saw. Jonathan Green: Now managing to working with artists, booking artists. Artists are notoriously fickle, especially with their managers or their lawyers are always calling with like crazy questions at all hours of the night. Hey, my refrigerator is not working, the light's not work, turning on inside out. Is the food cold? It's still cold and the light's broken out the refrigerator. Like things like that.

Sure you're familiar with that stuff. Working with bands, it's always highly artistic, people always come with a lot of baggage. Is it the same thing working with podcast type clients? Do you still get those kind of crazy type phone calls? Spencer Carpenter: Luckily not that often. The people that I'm dealing with are entrepreneurs and investors and business owners and so luckily those people are problem solvers and they're adaptable and so in the event that something goes wrong, they figure it out.

If it needs to be rescheduled, we figure it out. But I also do my work on the front end to try and make sure that everyone has exactly what they need when it comes to doing a podcast. You just need to know when to show up and what links to click and a rough idea of what the conversation is going to be about. There's a lot more things that can go wrong when it comes to a live performance.

But that's why I like doing this is I did go into this wondering how much handholding I was going to have to do. And luckily the people that are trying to be on podcasts are typically people that they have some type of DIY work ethic, or worth ethic in general, that makes it so that they're a lot more easy going than dealing with an artist. Jonathan Green: A lot of people's approach to getting on podcast is not good.

I get dozens of requests every single week of all different kinds and a lot of the times when I get the pitch, the angle is I'll be really interesting for your audience and that's the benefit offered to me. That's never what I look for. I always look for a guest who it's something I'm interested in or they're doing something different than other people. The guest doesn't always have to be big following, big name, obviously I love that too.

But if they have a good story, if they've done something unique, that's interesting to me, that's what I try to put together. But so often I can't tell you how many people's pitch starts with I'm one of the people who left corporate America to start becoming an entrepreneur and I'm like that's. Everyone that's like the most common pitch that I see, those are the two most common things and it's like there are really so many.

Sometimes I'll read someone's five page thing and I'm like, I don't know what you do or I don't know why you're different and I can tell you right now, the easiest way to get a big shows in my experience is like, hey, I have a huge audience and I'll get you a bunch of new listeners. That's what gets a podcast exciting more than anything else, right? That's a benefit. Right. I'll help you grow your show. I'll be interesting is like, I did hundreds of episodes solo.

So when you're working with a new talent, a new person who wants to have podcast and appearance, how do you help them develop their profile, their approach, the way of doing it, presenting themselves in a way that's appealing to a show? Spencer Carpenter: Yeah, so that's a great question. And I have had many people that come to me and they're like, well, I can speak on entrepreneurship, I can speak on business, I can speak on marketing, I can speak on real estate.

I'm like, anybody that's going to be on any of the shows that you want to be on can speak on those things. What makes you special? What is the value proposition? And sometimes it is, what are you doing that's unique? And sometimes it's also repackaging old ideas but putting into a new, more interesting case study sometimes. An example being I had a newer real estate wholesaler that had been he had been doing deals for about a year.

He started during COVID but at one point he was on vacation when he had $100,000 in wholesale fees come in. And so we were able to phrase that as how to make $100,000 on vacation. Now, he didn't do anything groundbreaking. He'd had good hiring practices. He had three well trained employees and good systems in place.

But that was able to give the host a reason to go back to that subject that they probably cover every two months about how important systems are and what you need to be implementing and how good hiring is and that sort of thing. A lot of these shows, especially if they've done hundreds of episodes, it's not always going to be a brand new conversation, but how do you reinforce these topics that are important and show new ways and new angles?

But yeah, there are definitely other people that have something very unique to give, whether it be a product or a service or a strategy in investing or in business or in marketing or something along those lines. But the way I always start off a pitch for my clients is I'm reaching out about so and so being on insert show to discuss. And then I always lead with the top two to three topics that I think are going to bring value to the host and the listeners.

And from there I try to put the ball in the court of the host. You tell me, do these topics resonate with you and your audience? The one thing I have concluded is even if I look at a show description and listen to few episodes, I don't always know what the host wants. There have been times where they said where a host got back to me and they're like, we don't think this person's a fit.

I'm like, well, he discusses literally everything that you have previously discussed at a higher level sometimes, and still they don't think it's a good fit. And I always respect that, but I am always trying to figure out what it is that appeals to the host. But I do that first by leading with what I think is going to be interesting to people.

And as someone that's an entrepreneur myself, being able to develop these pitches with my clients, I may be able to find the things that I think are interesting. And that's how I usually start off. Jonathan Green: Yeah, I'm thinking about it from when I'm looking at someone's pitch, what I like and don't like. And I can tell you that sometimes someone seems like they'd be the perfect guest and look at their profile, their social, and go, I don't know, I just don't like this person.

I know that sounds like a little bit crazy, but I guarantee you that it's probably ten or 20% of the time. And then my process is always I look for do they have a large audience somewhere? That's the first thing I look at. Right? That's just being honest, right? Oh, they have a huge TikTok following. Do they have an Instagram following? They have a huge LinkedIn following. I'm always disappointed because nobody they could have 80,000 LinkedIn followers and their last ten comments got, like, one.

I'm like, I don't know if LinkedIn followers do anything. It seems like the platform where there's no engagement. It seems like the one platform where there's no proof you have real followers. So that's the next thing I look at. And then I look at their area. What are they doing? Is it something interesting? Is it something I like things I don't know anything about, right? Like, I have had people on that are brain trainers.

When I have someone on real estate, I had someone on real estate who's working with their stepdad, I was like, that's interesting. I want to hear about that, because that's like my nightmare, right? Like, what a compliment. And that's very interesting to me, right? So I look for something like that, where either what they're doing is really interesting to my audience and it's new, or something from their story is unique.

And a lot of people really miss it on the how to be unique because they self describe and it's like, what are the things you can talk about? And it's tricky, right? It's hard to write things that are specific for every different show. And they have the generic thing that's in everyone. I can talk about leaving corporate America. I can talk about entrepreneurship.

I can talk about I mean, I really get turned off when people are like, go too far down the coaching coaches who coach coaches like that path because it's too generic. I want something specific. It's like, oh, I coach people to do this. Then I get interested, right? So specificity lets me quickly know if I like or don't like someone, right? I mean, that's like, the fourth thing I look at.

And it's like, is there something this person can talk about that's going to be really unique or different? We're always trying to find that. And it is that there are so many people that want to be on shows right now and trying to figure out, does this person know what they're talking about? A lot of people put be honestly fake stuff in there. I can tell some of those fake Instagram followers. I don't have to be a master detective.

Someone has 50,000 followers, and their last post has one. I know, thumbs up, right? They have zero engagement. So I see that sometimes, and I go, well, that's like, a bad sign, right? Even if I already liked them, I go, oh, this person's doing something I don't like. Or I've been in the author space for a long time. I know everything about it. I've done really big books with a lot of people.

So if someone's like, I'm a best selling author, I'm going to look up your book, and I'm going to know, right? I'm going to know right away if they cook those numbers. I'm like, you're a best selling author. You got four. And I'm like, I know how the Amazon algorithm works, so I always know what that really means. And I look at that. I've seen them when they say that, and they don't even have a book. I'm like, what's going on here?

So those are obviously dumb mistakes. But there are things that when you're looking at a book on your show, the first thing is obviously, are they going to grow my show? Are they going to be interesting or offer value? The third one is, are they going to be interesting? Right? And then you're just looking for things you're like, I've certainly done I've done about four episodes I'll never release. Sometimes. I did one just earlier today, two episodes ago.

I had one that was like at the end of it, she goes, I don't know what went wrong here, but you're not going to release this, are you? I was like, yeah, I don't know what happened, but this is like, a bad fit, right? Like, we were just having two different conversations. It felt so uncomfortable. And sometimes that happens, and you're always trying to like and she's like, this is the first time this ever happened. I was like, well, it happened me four times.

So I guess it's like I have more high frequency of that. But I just feel like sometimes personalized clash, that's a lot of what I look for when trying to look at a guest, because you're trying to make a decision fast. I actually hate when someone sends me a really long email. I want the short one because I'm saying, I'm just going to go look at your socials to see what your vibe is like. Especially if you say, I'm a social media manager.

If you say that, you better have some killer look. It has to look cool, right? Whatever you say you're good at. You got to have something that shows that don't say you're like a master of social media and then you have 400 followers or you have 200 TikTok followers. That's such a red flag for me because TikTok gives you a couple of hundred followers just for signing up.

So I look at all of those things and it is tricky because there's more and more people wanting to get on podcasts now, which means there's more and more noise to separate. Who knows what they're talking about and who cares. A lot of people just want to be on as many shows as they can and they don't care. They look at the sites. That tells you the percentage.

Like, my podcast is listed in the top 2.5% of shows, but literally every show I've ever looked up is listed as the top 2.5% on one of those sites. It's like, is anyone even in the top 3%? I've never seen anyone below 2.5. So some of that murky data immediately generates a whole bunch of people that don't even think about if they're a good fan. I just want to be on every show I can. Now, that's a long, long winded answer.

Spencer Carpenter: It's for those reasons I usually try not to lead unless I know it's real and they are a big name. I try not to lead with how big the social media following is. And it's because there are too many games that are being played with it and there's too many easy ways to buy your followers or your likes or whatever it might be.

And more often than not, at least when it comes to the people that I'm working with, they came to me because they didn't focus on their marketing enough or they're older and they don't care about focusing on the social media as much. They still want to be able to. This is usually a part of their program to start being more engaged on social media. It's like, let me get some podcasts and repurpose that content.

And so I do think that at least for the people I work with, a lot of the time, it is focused on how are we making their content the best it can be and what they're going to talk about the best it can be. And I found that sometimes I've worked with a lot of people in finance and financial planners and stuff like that, and their hands are tied on being unique and creative. For the most part, they all do the same thing.

Those that have done really well are the people that have a good story that shows they are actually passionate about why they do it. And so I have a client right now that she focuses on helping businesses be sellable when it comes time. She looks for small businesses that are mom and pop owned. They're using the business as a way of retirement at some point, whether that's selling the business or being able to operate the business passively when they retire.

And the reason she does this is because she was an immigrant. Her parents came over and they had an import export business, and her father got diagnosed with a terminal illness that made it so that for the next eight years, her mom had to take care of him. They had to close their business. And it wasn't a position to sell, and it wasn't in position to make money without them there. And she just watched it ruin her parents lives.

And so she just wants to make sure people everyone thinks like, one day I'll sell it, one day we'll get there there, and she's just like, no, you got to be planning on this at least a few years in advance. If you're near that age, you're not just going to be able to put it up for sale and get what you want out of it, especially if you're doing write offs all the time and showing that you make no money to the IRS.

People are only going to value your business based on what the profit is. That's just like one very small basic step, and she helps people walk through that. And so she's a financial planner. Again, her hands are tied on creativity, but she knows what to look for those people. And her story is really what sells it. It's not that she does something special on the financial planning side. She knows who to work with and what they need to be doing to be in that best position.

I think that talking to your audience, if you're having trouble figuring out what it is, maybe that's unique that you do, figure out what it is that you're passionate about, why you do what you do, and let that passion be the driving force behind why people should listen to you. They'll know that you're actually engaged in it. They know that you care about the subject matter and your customers or your service or whatever it might be all that is to go back to.

I think there's a lot of games in the social media space, just like you said, and that's why I don't focus on it as much. Jonathan Green: Yeah, there's always people who wait different platforms. Like, I was reached out by one of the big five publishers to do a book, and they were like, well, the advancement based on how many Twitter followers you have. And I was like, what?

I was like, do you care about the size of my mailing list or the revenue and he goes, no, those don't we don't look at those. I said, you don't look at my buyers, you just look at my Twitter followers. I think it's lower engagement than LinkedIn. I'm not sure. Nobody clicks on links from tweets because so many tweets go out per day, whereas I only send one email a day. But there's always people that I'm like, oh, you just learned about the internet last week.

You just know about one platform. I can always tell that stuff when I'm dealing with someone who's a traditional business, they're out of touch with it or they're looking at the wrong metrics. Definitely in the book industry, right? I think 14 publishers turned down Harry Potter and none of the people got fired. I told everyone who works for me, if you lose me a billion dollars, you're fired. Like auto rule.

The fact that you can turn down the most successful book of all time, like this book is terrible. You should definitely be fired if your job is reviewing books. And yet so there is this challenge when you come from traditional industries where they have no knowledge of what works and what doesn't. But also you have a lot of people that think that being a podcast guest is a great way to get famous. And I'm not sure that it is.

I'm not really sure that people go, oh, I listen to someone on 50 different podcasts because I love that guest. I just don't know that's really a real thing. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's one of my perceptions. I think it can be when you're on the right show strategically, if it's the right fit, then it can be a really good benefit to both of you. But there's a strategic element.

I think that's a lot of what you do, which is like, what is the right type of show for this person? I work with someone, I do book coaching and her book is about intimacy. I'm like, there's only certain podcasts that you can go on, right? You can't go on book podcasts or business podcasts because your book is about a very specific topic having to do with relationships and adult stuff, right? So it's like that immediately changes the entire platform.

Now, I always get asked whenever I do appearance on a show and I don't do that many guest appearances. This is what I do, right? And then they're always like, well, did you listen to a couple of my episodes to see what we're all about? I'm like, of course not. I never do that. Let's be honest. Whenever someone actually listens to even when people tell me they listen to a couple of my past episodes, I'm like, I don't know if it's really true. I don't know.

That's a lot of time, right? Some of my episodes are 45 minutes or an hour long. You spent 3 hours listening to my back catalog to get a feel for it. Like, great, that's a lot of research and that's cool. But I always wonder about that, how important that is. Obviously you don't want to be totally surprised.

Like you go on a podcast, find out they do games or surprises and stuff, but how do you approach the strategic element and how much research about a show does a person actually have to do in order to have a good experience and come up and bring their A game? Spencer Carpenter: Yeah, I definitely instruct all of my clients to go and listen to at least one interview before they get on. Whether or not they do it, I can't be sure.

I know there are few that have really impressed me with it. They're like, oh man, if we have to reschedule, I really need to think about this because I want to listen to three of their episodes before I'm like, I really appreciate that. I'm sure the host will too. That's really cool of you, but I instruct most of them and not many have gotten back to me saying they did it. Just to be quite frank.

And again, that's part of the reason I also want to lead with is what my client has to offer, what's going to be relevant to the host. Because there are some hosts that are like there are some hosts that use this as a fun hobby. Maybe it serves some purpose in their business, but it's just fun for them.

And in those instances, they are usually a little more picky about this being something that everyone is pulling their weight and making sure it's the perfect guest they're going to have the perfect conversation with. But a majority of the podcasts in the business and entrepreneurship and investing space, they're driving business. This is a tool and it does not have to be the perfect fit, in my opinion.

That's not to say that their conversations don't come out well, but they are not necessarily going to be upset if they find out the person didn't listen to their podcast in advance. As long as they know what they're talking about and they're able to bring value to the guest. That's my experience. I'm sure there are some people that are going to disagree with me on that it's in terms of the reach and getting famous and that sort of thing.

I mean, I look at it like this. There are lots of people that jump at the opportunity to do any type of speaking engagement, whether it be to a local meetup group of 20 people or in some sort of corporate environment where maybe it's a few hundred people talking to a specific section of a company. A podcast is a great opportunity to get in front of hundreds of people no matter what.

There are very few podcasts that are still going after a year if they don't break 50 people, 50 downloads in their audience. So I usually like to look for shows that are at least a year old or maybe six months old or something like that. I want to see that the host has some experience on giving interviews, because any host that has given more than two dozen has started to pick up a feel. They get comfortable with it.

And that always is going to hedge your bets that the interview comes out, even if maybe it comes out well, even if maybe the subject matter wasn't exactly what they expected. Or maybe the guests got off track a little bit. There are certainly people that just get off track with their thoughts. They're not polished media givers. They don't go on CNN.

A lot of the people doing podcast guests, they're doing it for the first time, or they've only done a handful, which I think brings a natural and organic feel to the conversation. I've had people that say, I'm really nervous, that I said a lot of uz and UMS, and that sort of thing. And I'm like that's. Fine. That shows that you're human. It shows that you're a normal person. And usually people are okay with that.

So the record straight with clients like you're not getting on Rogan, I'm not getting you on Rogan, at least I'm going to do my best to get you on shows that have the greatest reach possible. But if you're on five shows that are smaller and have a few hundred audience, you put those five shows together that each had 200. You now spoke to 1000 people and you just speak to them for a few minutes.

You spoke to them for 25 or 35 or 45 minutes, and that was a lot of time building rapport with people that could be your potential customer, or maybe people that just liked your conversation and might refer you to somebody else. So yeah, everyone wants to get out as far as they can. That's always the number one concern. But sometimes just having a quality conversation is what's important. Maybe if you strike a chord with that host, they're going to be a great referral source for you.

Maybe just have a really good conversation where you're on point and you're able to pull a lot of content out of that interview that you can repurpose on those social medias. Or maybe the name of the podcast. Let's just say the podcast is small. Let's just say going back to the idea of a financial planner, if it's called the Financial Planning Podcast, I don't care if it only has two five star reviews and 20 listeners for SEO purposes, that's the perfect show to be on.

So it also comes back to what's the person's goal? I do have clients that just say, I just have a new business, I need good SEO. There are other people that say I'm raising money and so I need to be in front of the right people. And then some people that just understand that generally having a. Whole bunch of different marketing opportunities always works out for them. So it is kind of like, what's your goal?

If you're looking for SEO, go find something that's just hitting the keywords that you're focused on and maybe don't worry about the size because for SEO purposes it's great. But if you know that you need to make it count yeah. Then you need to be a little more strategic. And to your point, some people say, I've listened to the last few episodes of yours. I call bullshit on that too. If I were to get that email, I also stop saying I hope you're well.

Because I read nobody actually believes you when you say, I hope you're well to a stranger. Like, I get to the point. And if you really did go back and listen to five of their episodes, you can really personalize that email in a way that will stand out. And if that is the case, the host will appreciate it. But if you just say, I listened to the last few of your episodes and I think I'd be a good fit, no one really believes you.

You either get to the point and show that you're a professional and just bring value, or you can go that super personalized route, but don't do the in between where you fake it. Jonathan Green: Yeah, because sometimes they get that. I can tell. They look up the name of the most recent episode that got published, but sometimes it's when they write more. They go, oh, I liked when this and this happened. I'm like, I don't remember that because I record these in advance, right?

And I'm like, oh, I can tell when they really did it because they did the things to show it. But you are right that sometimes it's like they just name I can tell to use a bot. I can tell using the most math mailing tools, especially when they send it to the wrong email. I'm like, okay, I know what's going on here and just like a disconnect. But sometimes you can find those real diamonds.

And it is that for a show like this, I'm trying to find things that are like a good conversation. Like a lot of people, this is a very free form podcast. Like, what are we going to talk about? I don't know how to predict the future. You might say something totally crazy when I ask the first question and we're going down that rabbit hole because I'm chasing what's interesting, right? I don't know what's going to happen.

I usually know the first question and then I have no idea what's going to happen after that because I don't know what your answer is going to be. And that's what is last year. I know there's other shows that they plan the questions in advance and it's very structured, but that's not my vibe because I don't want to lose something because I pre wrote a question when your answer is really interesting about something else. Spencer Carpenter: Right? Jonathan Green: I think about that.

And that part I do want people to know is like, when they come and they go, what's the style? And I always ask when people show up, they go I go, do you have any questions before we get started? And sometimes they're like, well, tell me about your audience. And I'm like, okay, I'll tell you a little bit about it. And I always wonder how much it changes what they're going to say. Because I say my audience is 45 to 65.

They're people that are professionals that have a careers and they're moving into entrepreneurship. What would you say different if I said they're 35 to 45? I always wonder that. And some people, maybe they do modify. Right. I'm like, I'm happy to say it, but but I don't really change what I talk about based on the age of the audience, unless they're under 18. But I haven't been on a show like that.

But I do look at those things and what I also wonder is what are things that people should do if they want to get on a lot of shows? What's the right approach to get on the first couple of shows and then what are things they can do? You talk about referrals post show because some people do follow up with me and some people full Ghost the second episode is recorded, I'm never going to hear from them again. Which is fine, right.

Because we didn't become best friends. And this is something I talk about. One of my friends runs a huge podcast with massive celebrities like, yeah, the second he's over, he's like, I'm never going to hear from them again. We're not going to be best friends. Just sounds friendly on the show. You think of these people that have the late night shows and they interviewing celebrities all the time. They're not hanging out with them afterwards. Right? Spencer Carpente: Good job. Still.

Jonathan Green: And let's say you're doing a movie or in a Marvel movie, you're doing 60 to 80 media appearances a week. You don't have time to actually become friends with anyone. And I'm the same way I appear on shows, very rarely does it translate into something more because it's just a part of my business. Right.

But what are things people can do as far as choosing the shows to be on or what are smart things to do afterwards to stay that connection with the host, or if they want to maintain that rapport, what are the right things to do? Spencer Carpenter: Yeah, I mean, off the bat, if you haven't given the show that just hosted you and put you on their platform a five star review, you better do that. And if you let the host know, they're going to appreciate it.

I've seen shows that have hundreds of interviews, but they only have ten five star reviews. And obviously the review count is not the only indicator of a show's success. But it says that there's a disconnect somewhere where the host isn't asking whether it be the guest or the listeners to give them a five star review. And that stuff can add up and give credibility to the show. And being on a credible show helps the guest obviously taking it further.

If you're doing interviews, you better be sharing them on whatever social media or whatever platform you use as a way to let people know what you're doing. You better be posting those interviews because it's free content that the host took the time to edit, you already put in the time.

There are people that hire teams to come out and film them all day, or they set up a camera in front of themselves and take the time to put out this robotic sounding content all the time when they have a completely organic conversation that they just had on a podcast the other day. And they can be repurposing that. But in addition, I think that some people lose the idea of like if you have an email list, think about who's on that list.

It's oftentimes current clients, but it's also people that maybe you had a conversation with that didn't sign up but were added to your email list. Those people are still getting your emails. They're lazy sometimes, they don't unsubscribe. But if they see that you've been on Ten podcasts in the last few months because you're sharing it with your email list, maybe if they still need your service and they've been on the fence, that could be a conversion.

That could be something that pushes them over, especially if they maybe the reason they didn't get in with you initially is because you were new to your profession. They could tell you were new, they weren't sold on it, that sort of thing. But they see that credibility builder is out there, that you're getting invited onto podcasts all the time you're giving these interviews. Sometimes they go and listen to one and hear how confident you are. Now, that can be a conversion for you.

I think about that, especially when it comes to my people that are raising money. They have calls all the time with potential investors that don't come through, but I know those people are watching. They are looking to see it's hard to give over money, so they get uncomfortable. But if they continue to watch somebody and see that they're being put in a position of authority, that's going to be helpful to them.

And the great thing that the podcast provides is it's a situation where they're not selling to anybody, they're just providing value. They're having a conversation. People can hear their personality, they can hear the backstory, they can hear if they're funny, if they're not funny, but they're straight to the point in business oriented.

If that's what resonates with them, that stands out on a podcast, which is obviously better than any type of Facebook ad or Instagram ad or LinkedIn ad that you could be running and the outreach you could be doing through InMail from LinkedIn, I delete all of those things. But being able to provide people with this proof that what you're talking about and that others believe you're talking about is a real difference maker to someone that might be on the fence.

And I think that's one area that's super undervalued. To your point, though, about people that never actually come back to the show host, that's a failure of follow up on the guest part. Quite honestly. They should be hitting you up once a year saying, do you know anybody that I want to follow up on the conversation we had a year ago? Do you know anybody that could possibly use my service?

There's definitely a failure on the side of guests to really utilize the conversations they're having with host. And I do say to people sometimes, let's just say you do a podcast campaign or you do ten podcasts and you don't get an immediate conversion from it in the first three or six months or something. If nothing else, you just had ten one on one meetings with other people in your industry that might be a referral source, they might be a client, they might know somebody.

You better be making the most out of that conversation. Jonathan Green: That brings up something that maybe a lot of people don't know about podcasts is that when I get a new fan, I can tell because there's a number of downloads that day, like a jump based on my whole back catalog. And people do this with blogs. This both have happened to me. And I'm surprised because I had someone who was a friend of mine go, I read your entire blog today.

I was like, It's 600 posts. And I'm like, did you read them back to front or front to back, oldest to newest or newest to oldest? And same thing for podcast episodes. When people become a superfan, they listen to the whole back catalog. And I've seen this happen because some of my friends, they've been podcasting for 1215 years. It's their whole business, which is not me, but they'll have someone who gets famous ten years later and that episode then explodes, right?

Because you go, oh, let me interview that person. So this is a great thing you rang up, is that the podcast is a perpetual traffic machine. It's not like a television appearance, which is a one time spike. Like being on Oprah or Shark Tank is great, but only when the episode airs. But with the podcast, it's always new. The more podcast grows, like, what people don't miss sometimes is that, hey, the more you help that podcast grow, the more people that are going to find you.

And I'm always, every time I get a new listener, they'll bring up episodes from six months or a year ago. Or two years ago. And that's great for everyone. So that is important to bring up. And then let's talk about the other side of it because you really focus on the representing speaker sides. What are things that shows are doing right and shows are doing wrong? What are things that you see that are like, oh, I'm never putting someone in the show.

This is like a massive red flag. And then things that you go, oh, this is a great show to go on besides size, those are obvious. But what are like even early days podcasts, you go, this one's not going to work out. Spencer Carpenter: Yeah, there are just some shows that it doesn't seem like the host is particularly engaged.

That can be obviously a red flag for me sending clients to them, moving forward, because I don't want my clients to feel like they're wasting their time with someone that isn't interested in what they have to say. But dude, 95% of podcasts do not notify me when the episode goes live for my client, nor do they notify the client. So how is anybody supposed to promote the episode that you just had them on if you don't tell them?

There are some podcasts that will create the graphics for you. And I know that's a whole extra step. That requires time, it requires resources, it requires a designer. I get it if not every show does that. But at a minimum, you need to be letting people know.

My only contractor employee, his job is to go through every single interview my clients have done over the last six months and see if the episode has gone live if it hasn't, every Friday, because so many shows don't tell me. And I know that it's weird. The podcast industry is one that is very DIY, even though that there's a lot of money going into it. The people starting podcasts are just taking this jump to do this thing.

And there are some steps that you're missing out on. The opportunity and the value of being on a podcast if you skip over just letting the person know now is the time to promote. That's the biggest one. I think that every podcast host on their calendar or scheduling link should have a click box that says, I am committed to leaving a five star review and sharing this and asking at least two of my employees or colleagues to do the same.

There's no way to enforce it, but if every calendar link said, I'm going to get three five star reviews out of this, shows would look bigger at a very minimum. There would be people that take that seriously. And it's not in their mind if it's not asked of them. It's not that these people choose not to. They just don't think about it. They're not asked to. That's the call to action from a host to a guest.

Promote the episode and please leave a five star view that's the way I look at that, that's the minimum. Jonathan Green: Okay. Yeah. Because what's interesting is for me, it is a whole thing. Because I send out the social media clubs, I have to create different shapes, right? You have to do the vertical and the square, and then when the person doesn't even post them, it knocks the wind out of your sales. Because it costs me money.

Like every episode I put out, it cost me bunch of money to get it edited, to get the social media stuff, to get the show notes made, to get the descriptions done, all of that stuff takes time and stuff. And then I'm digging to the real thing here. I do notify people I know when the episode is going out way in advance, and I let the person know. I send out the link, like months in advance. This is when your episode is coming out.

The day it comes out, I send them a link to the thing. But what you're saying is very interesting. I'm always looking for ways to do things better. So I like what you're saying. Just feel weird asking people to interview the show they're on because all my reviews are from people that are just listeners, right? That's generally. But when I look at a show that invites me on, I do look at the ratio. If there's 500 episodes and four reviews, I'm like, there's nobody listening.

That's like desolate. I look for at least one. I look for is there at least one review per every four episodes. So if it's 200 episodes, I want to see 50 reviews. Obviously higher than that's better, but yeah, it does to me. And this is an engineer. It feels weird to be like, hey, review a show that you were on, not that you listened to.

Spencer Carpenter: But I'm not always telling people that they need to write a review about how amazing the interview was, but go give it a five star review, like, at a minimum. And I'm curious. I know that this would require more resources, so I can't imagine that you have somebody that can go and follow up with every single guest on, look on their social media and ask them them see if they post it.

But could you set up two follow up, one in a month, and say, hey, just wanted to check and make sure you saw this and that you shared it. And then maybe one that's two and a half months later and say, hey, did you get any response from this? Did you get any leads from this? Just curious. And it's at least going to remind them, like, you better be sharing this because we're following up with you again, who knows how many people.

There's no way to enforce it. And it would take time for you to actually go through and call out everybody that didn't. But just setting up an automated email that checks in with them every month or two and a half months would push them a little bit more to remind them, hey, you've got this free piece of content, you better go put it out there. Jonathan Green: Okay?

I like that because it is that thing of like, oh, people will only share it the week it comes out, or those things like that. So this is interesting to me because I do love this show. Like I'm passionate about it. I put a lot of time in it and it's always being strategic.

Sometimes I'm so strategic about other parts of my business and I put a lot of effort into this part, like what age is in it, putting the studio, the sound, the recording, choosing the guests, all of that stuff. But it's the after part that comes. There's so much extra mechanics that come afterwards. Creating social media posts, letting people know, doing the follow up, creating those things, and people get busy. Spencer Carpenter: And those tasks aren't like the revenue generators. That's why it's hard to prioritize them.

It's just the service side of it. But you mentioned that sometimes people see the spike if they actually pay to be on TV. I know a guy that did pay to be on a local news station and he just reposts that every six months. I just did this interview and he said he gets calls from it all the time, just from posting it, people share it and that is like again, it comes back to this is not a firmly systematized industry yet.

It's still fairly new and people don't understand where the pitfalls are sometimes or they're not thinking about it's just an afterthought. I did this interview, it was cool. I shared it one time. You should be sharing it every few months, especially if you've only done a few of them or picking out the pieces you liked.

It goes back to the people that are going to get the most out of it are the people that are really using it as a marketing tool for their business and they care about social media. I will say though, that again, coming back to my clients, a lot of them found me and this service because they didn't focus on their marketing and they know they need to, but they're not young. They don't really care about being on social media.

They don't care about reposting on social media all the time. But they need to understand that this is what makes it worth it. That follow up, it's not the ad you ran on Facebook or Instagram that once the ad budget is done, it's done. You have the content forever. And to your point, there are plenty of people that have talked about how they did an interview three years ago, but then the show got bigger and people went to that back catalog and found that.

And the first show that I really dove into, I went back and listened to the previous 400 episodes. And later on, I ended up working with some of the people I listened to whose episodes I took notes from, but I didn't remember their name. But once they told me this thing about their business, I was like, holy shit. I remember hearing your interview three years ago, and I don't take my phone out and take notes. I've done it like five times.

But the five times I've done it, they ended up being people I worked with. And I remembered when I heard something referring to that part of their business, it wasn't even they said, I talked about this on that interview. I just remembered later on because it really stood out to me. Jonathan Green: That's very interesting. I think that this has been like a really cool episode. It's definitely been helpful for me.

I know a lot of people be interested because a lot of people don't have a firm understanding of the business of podcasting, of being a guest and seeing the ways to use it or not use it. I think that a lot of people think that they can't use content from the episode, though, because it's not their show. I wonder if people think that, like, oh, I can't, right? Unless someone sends me a clip, I can't use it.

I'm wondering if people have that thought that it's like, oh, wait a minute, it's not my property. As though I'd be upset if someone cut their clip of an episode and used it. Spencer Carpenter: But that's interesting if that's a thought they have. I've never had a podcast deny me the raw zoom video or whatever. Video. Audio. They've never once said no. With that in mind, I've only had a few people that actually asked me to go back and get it.

Jonathan Green: That's just really cool. I think this has been really great. So I know some people are going to be like, oh, I want to learn more about Spencer. I want to learn more about podcasts and see if it's the right thing for me. Where's the best place for people to find you? Online? Spencer Carpenter: Yeah. So outlieraudio.com. Outlieraudio.com. My instagram is just my name spencer Carpenter. My business Instagram is the same thing. Outlieraudio. And you can also find me on LinkedIn.

So, yeah, all the major spots. Jonathan Green: Awesome. So guys, check it out. That's Spencer Carpenter from Outlieraudio.com. Thank you so much for being here. It's been really cool today. Spencer Carpenter: Thanks, Jonathan. I appreciate it. Jonathan Green: Thanks for listening to today's episode. I love podcasting, and it's never too late to start your amazing podcast. Get started with my free guide@servenomaster.com, forward slash Checklist. Announcer: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of The Serve No Master podcast.

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