SNM265:The Art of Selling Without Selling with Ann Carden

Jonathan Green: The art of selling without selling with special guest and garden on today's episode. Today's episode is brought to you by Canva. When we finally decided to grow our social media presence, Canva was the only option. I tried dozens of alternatives, but I had to admit that nothing else comes close. We use Canva for social images, print on demand designs, and tons more at Served To Master. grab a free account today atservdomaster.comfront/canva. Announcer: Are you tired of dealing with your boss?

Do you feel underpaid and underappreciated? If you want to make it online, fire your boss and start living your retirement dreams now, then you've come to the right place. Welcome to Serv No Master podcast, where you'll learn how to open new revenue streams and make money while you sleep. presented live from Atropical Island in the South Pacific by best selling author, Jonathan Green. Now here's your host.

Jonathan Green: Now I'm always this is one of my favorite topics because so often the difference between a successful coach and a coach who can't make things work is picking up the telephone. There's this fear of picking up the phone, talking to someone into buying something they don't want, and ruining their life. And so that I think that's what goes to so many of our heads. Right?

The idea of selling has this connotation even though I've been in sales for most of my life, I still think of a used car salesman. And I have been to used car salesman lots, and they are exactly what I remember. So I wonder if that's if that thing in our minds is why so many of us are afraid to do sales or feeling comfortable with it. Ann Carden: Yes. I agree. I think that it has a really it feels slimy and Nikki for most people.

One of the things though that I really recommend people do is be able to position themselves so well and use next level marketing strategies so that they attract and influence buyers rather than chasing buyers. And so that's a very different philosophy from what a lot of people are doing. I'm not against picking up the phone, but a lot of times it's disruptive to people, and you don't get the response that you would like to have. Also, they get a lot of calls and things like that.

So I find that some of the best ways is to really use those next level strategies, speaking, getting in front of your ideal clients, even going back to you know, just even emails sometimes can have a better response than calling if it's done properly, if it's done in the right way, which is not how a lot of people do it. Jonathan Green: You've mentioned the difference between prospecting and positioning, which is very important to me because a lot of people early on.

It feels like a catch 22. It's like, don't chase clients. Let clients chase you. And it's easy to say, but for someone who doesn't have an audience yet. It can seem really hard to do. And I can say from my experience as a high level ghost writer, that I've never won a competition. Anytime there's multiple riders or anything where they're farming, I never get the job. However, when it's a single conversation, I always get the job and I almost never get pushed back on price.

So I'm in the middle of a really, really big job right now. And they said, what's the price great and wired the money same day? But if they'd been looking at different riders, I knew I wouldn't have gotten the job. So I never do well with prospecting myself. Whenever there's a competition, like, all of that stuff on Upwork, I'm not good at that. Whether looking at 10 or 20 riders, I always lose. but positioning has been the secret to me.

Now my positioning has always been just terrible what we're really good at. I find so many people, especially when they're starting out, they wanna get clients before they change their LinkedIn profile or before they build a website or before they tell their friends and family. Like, my big secret is I just tell everyone I'm a celebrity ghost writer. And that's why I get all my clients is because I'm the only celebrity ghost writer anyone knows. But that's just, like, the beginning of positioning.

So how do you help people or what do you think should do when they're like, I'm just starting. I have no clients. I wanna be a coach. I wanna be a consultant. I wanna do some type of high level service. How do I start to establish authority which generates, like, people coming to me? Ann Carden: Yes. I love this question. because we really can manufacture our celebrity in today's marketplace with social media, and I'm a believer that people are gonna start a consulting or coaching business.

They need to the fastest path for them is going to be doing it around their expertise, their knowledge, their skills. So even though they may be new to the coaching or consulting space, they are probably coming with a lot of experience or knowledge that could be packaged up, and they could build their business around that.

Then they don't have to look like a newbie because they probably can pull from that past experience maybe past clients that they worked with in a company, the results that they've had with people. And so that's the first step is laying that foundation to look to really be seen as the expert that they are. Now if they're going out and they're trying to learn something completely new, that's a whole different thing and those are that's a tough road.

That is just a really tough path, and I see a lot of people go down that path. But when they come with expertise Jonathan Green: Yeah. I think so many people in the last few years, especially when they lost their jobs or business shut down, so many people suddenly became a coach the next day. And -- Right. -- it's the shift. 10 years ago, it was we everyone became after 2008, everyone I knew became a real estate agent after they lost their jobs.

This time, it's everyone's becoming coaches or they coach coaches, and it's always well, I don't wanna do what I was doing before. And a great this is me. I don't wanna write any more books. I always say I won't write anymore. That's why I keep raising my price because but it's the thing I'm so good at. that it keeps pulling me back. Right?

I don't wanna be an author coach, but that's always be reached out to me for I have 2 book coaching clients right now that reached out to me for that exact reason. So sometimes your authority becomes like this, I don't know, black hole or, like, a whirlpool that you can't escape from, but I so many people And the way I deal with this, I just raise my price. Right? So I'm like, oh, I don't wanna do it. Double the price. Double the price.

And as long as people keep paying, but so many people don't wanna be an accountant anymore or they don't wanna be a chiropracting where they wanna move it to something completely different. And it is I feel like that's, like, trying to start 2 jobs at once. Right? Like, you're learning to be a coach, and you have to learn to establish a new expertise. So it's doubling the workload or maybe it's even 4 x ing it.

So I always tell people to whatever your current expertise is leverage that to make enough revenue that then you can build out the business you wanna build with the extra time you have. But what do you think people should do when they're kind of, oh, I don't wanna do what I used to do. I don't or they a lot of people I think don't give credit to their expertise. Like, they don't think it's valuable enough to other people.

They think they have to coach something else that's more valuable. So how can people accurately self assess Ann Carden: Yes. So one thing that they can do is make a list of everything that they've done and maybe in a past job where they really feel like they're really great at that. So many times, people look at the overall picture.

Oh, I did technology for this. but they don't really even account for all of the things that they've done along the way that have you know, that made them the expert that they are. So there's within a particular expertise, there's a lots of things people know how to do and lots of things that they probably do extremely well. And then it's all it goes back to how they position that. And there's so many ways that they can work with people within that expertise.

You can advise people. You can be a trusted adviser, doesn't mean you have to go do the same exact thing. A lot of people don't think like this. They think, okay, if I'm leaving this company and I wanna become a consultant, then I need to go and do this thing almost like an employee again working for these companies or these organizations, but that's not necessarily the case. You can be a consultant and become an adviser.

You can become an adviser to their teams or to their leaders. There's so many ways you can structure it. Even with you, you know, you talked about the book, but out off of that, you have created a copywriting business. that and so you can position those things so that you don't have to necessarily fall back into the same exact thing that you were doing, but you're leveraging that expertise. And that's really the difference.

And that's what a lot of people don't quite understand or what they don't really get. The other thing you talked about is prospecting and positioning. You have to do both. You have to be positioned well, but you also have to prospect But my idea of prospecting is you get in front of the people that you want and you let them see you and you start and you build that relationship with them, and that's where you attract and influence them.

And if you're positioned well in the market, that's exactly what will happen. They will reach out to you. They'll on your calendar, they'll come to your inbox, but you'll also get referrals from people because they'll easily be able to see what you do, who you're for, how you help people, And so then those referrals can come in as well. Is that making sense? Jonathan Green: Yeah.

You brought up something really important, which is another place where people get stuck, which is get in front of your prospects. And what I always tell people and it's so interesting because people never wanna do this But it's find where those people spend time and go there. I'm always reminded that there was a moment when I was 27 living in London or outside London. We I went into this pub, this guy next to me says, we never meet any women.

I said, women don't come into this pub. Women walk in here, look around and turn right out, and walk back out. This is it's that kind of place. The only women here are wives, and I realized I never went back that that night. It was a nice night I ever went to that pub. I realized, oh my gosh. I'll never find a wife if I just go here from right. I'll never find a relationship. And so often. Right?

We don't even realize, oh, why do I never meet people know how to swim? Well, you live in the desert. Right? Like, if you -- Right. -- thinking about And I know people think you only mean speaking at events, but also even going to events where it's the right kind of people is where if you're not in where the people are, then you're never gonna meet them.

And this is, I think, such an important step that a lot of people skip because we when I started online, I was like, oh, I never have to talk to another person again. I can just work on the computer and make money, and I never have to do anything. And my revenue is probably 99% handshakes. If someone doesn't pay me, there's nothing I can really do. Right?

You can't really sue someone for, like, $4000 because by the time you get to court, their fees have been higher. Right? So all of these it's a technology fills in the gap. It's still mostly trust. It's mostly that relationship is such a huge part of it. So For people who wanna become coaches and they're trying to figure out who their audience is, how can they get in front of or figure out where they're ideal or even who their ideal customer is.

Ann Carden: A lot of people, like, I don't know who my customer is. Right. So when you're first starting out, you really do have to maybe try out a few different audiences and see where you've where you are the best fit. for those audiences or who you wanna work with. And so there's a little bit of trial and error when you're first beginning. Unless you have a very specific expertise that is really going to be for a specific audience, and then that makes it really easy.

One thing you can do, for example, coming from technology. If you niche yourself in the technology space, you've now can build up that credibility and then you can determine where those people are and who those people are. So it's a lot easier if you're working within something that you're already established in, that's a really fast path. But if you have something that sales experience, for example, and that's what you're going to consult our coach on, then what most aligns with what your expertise is?

Is that going to be like SaaS Companies, selling software programs, or is that going to be people that are selling bigger deals, negotiation, you know, 200, 500 k, $1,000,000 deals. So, again, where is your sweet spot and then determine what the audience would be for that? And most often, you can just start and go after that audience. And then once you start working with some of them, you can find out. Is this an area that I like? Is this a niche I like?

The other thing you can do, and a lot of people don't think about doing this, is leveraging people that are already in the company that you left or people relationships that you even built in the past, where people already know you. They know of your experience, your expertise, and just start there.

So if you're talking about getting the 1st clients, don't even worry so much about, okay, the who as much as what is the problem you're going to solve or what is that expertise you're packaging up. and who would be a fit for that? And then who do I know that could either get me to someone that would have a need for those services, or who do I know might need my services and start there. I think sometimes niching comes down. Sometimes your niche finds you.

This is what I found when I got started in the coaching and consulting space. I worked with small business owners, and I worked with and entrepreneurs, and I worked with all kinds of industries. I've worked in over 50 different industries. with entrepreneurs and business owners. And so my niche kind of found me along the way, and so people stop themselves from really just diving in and get it going and hustle a little bit to get it going. And then from there, you can start defining things.

And it's also the reason I started working with consultants and coaches. That niche found me. I was part of a coaching organization, and I was having success because I kind of cracked the code on how to have a successful business coaching business, and they started elevating me to all of their 100 of coaches, and people started asking me for advice. And instead of building their business, I decided to do it for myself. And so that niche once again found me.

And since then, I've obviously developed my process and all of that. So, yeah, I does that does that answer your question? Jonathan Green: Yeah. I think we're starting to get to something really interesting because it's this well, do I know what I wanna coach first or I find the client first? And I think that's where a lot of people get stuck, and it is just get the first client and figure it out.

I think that's -- And the other thing I would mention is that most of my clients are one degree of separation. So I'm far more likely if someone goes, hey. I'm looking to have someone help me write my book, and they go, oh, I know Jonathan. He's a ghost writer. I always get that job. Whereas if I go to someone and say, I'm a ghost writer. Do you have a job for me like that? It's never that person. It's always the one degree of separation.

When I first started out way back in 2010, I was like, I wanna understand networking. So I started going to all the meetup.com events. and so many people were awful at networking that I was able to write down all the things that made me uncomfortable and just not do those. Like, that was my whole secret is that I just show, oh, everything I don't like what other people do.

Like, when people give you their business card before they talk to you, I learned don't do that because I don't know what they do. Maybe it's not even it's like a waste. Right? You're kind of saying, I'll give a business card to anyone. But if you -- Right. -- wait and see, oh, they're not a good fit, then it's a waste. And that's small things like that.

And what I started to do for me was just go to lots of events and just plant the seed of what I do. And it's I think of it sometimes like farming. Like, you just let a lot of people know what you do. Act like you're really good at it. Like, a little bit of fake it till you make it a little bit of believe in yourself. and it starts to grow. And sometimes it's 10 years later, sometimes it's 2 weeks later.

But I I find, at least with people that I help, who are trying to become writers or content writers or ghost writers or covers, they don't wanna tell anyone what they do until they have a client. But you can't get a client if you don't act like it's what you're good at. Right? Like, the key it's like if you came with a secret.

Like, if you didn't tell anyone you were a business coach and I had to guess Like, it's we're not gonna get a lot of clients. Right? Like, everyone has to guess what you do. What do you do? Coaching. What time? Not gonna tell you. It's a secret. Yeah. Be the best kept secret. That's not yeah. That doesn't work. There's this fear. I think it's similar to people who, like, use the word side hustle.

Like, they see their side business as, like, a hobby or a game so they don't take it seriously. So that way if it doesn't work, they don't feel bad. I think that people, like, oh, I won't tell anyone that I'm a coach. I won't tell them a writer because then I can't get rejected if it doesn't work out. People won't look down on me if my idea doesn't work out. But if you don't believe in it, Right? Like, it's this circle.

Like, if you don't believe in it, then you can't grow, and you don't wanna tell anyone because in case it doesn't grow, and that causes it to grow. It's this I think it's the same thing. Right? This fear of rejection, the same thing that keeps people for wanting to do sales, and the same thing that keeps people for wanting to tell people what they do. Now you mentioned something that's so important, which is the way to describe your coaching.

So many people on LinkedIn so many profiles that I see say, I help companies turn their joy into money or I help companies activate their passion. or I help you know, like, I help you turn your love into a business, and it's so wide open what that could mean. Yeah. It's too abstract. -- could be teach people anything like that. Right? What I find were people don't wanna hire a coach. They wanna solve a problem. Mhmm.

If you -- Absolutely. say, if you can be very specific, I will fix this problem. Then when people have that problem, they jump at it. It's that particular activation system. Like, when you're hungry and you smell food, you look at it, when you're full, you ignore it, that exactly like you said, niching down is, like, I am a specialist this. I help this type of entrepreneur get from $100,000 a year to $500,000 a year, then exactly who has that problem goes, oh, you solved my problem.

So I think that's the second thing that people get stuck on is they think they're using the wrong words. Right? Like, yeah, you are a coach. but people don't wanna hire coach. They wanna solve a problem. Right. It's that shift, mindset shift is so important. And even though, like, yeah, my main thing is ghost writing, I solve a problem which is you don't have time to write your book. Right? Right. You don't have time to do it. I'll do your booking 3 hours of your time.

I know the problem I solve, and I can very explain it very clearly. Right. So I think that's where people get stuck. And especially when someone's like, well, I don't know. I'm good at a lot of stuff. I think this is the curse of the jack of all trades. Right? Yeah. -- is that you're good at everything, so no one wants to hire you. Like, I'm good at other things.

If I'm talking to someone, I'm always out, which is the thing that I do that they're the most interested in? I never say, oh, I'm a ghost writer, and I write webinars, and I'm a copywriter, and I design funnels because people are gonna go, uh-oh. It's like the it's like the doctor is also a lawyer. Like, you don't wanna go to them if you're sick, and you don't wanna go to them if you're on trialing. I want someone who's a lawyer all the time.

How can someone who's not sure Right? How do you help people who are not sure what their thing is yet, describe themselves, or find the problem that they solve? Ann Carden: Yeah. So what I mean, one of the things that I really have to do with people is really extrapolate that value that they have. And a lot of times, just like me, I do everything. I'm an a's I may I'm an a to z approach for my clients.

I don't do a quick little one off offer, and then you have to go look for the next thing to grow your business. So what you have to do is really package that in a way that it solves an overall bigger problem But then within that problem, you do multiple things. So, for example, my expert in new method, I help people if they're in start up phase, I help them design their business model? What is their revenue model gonna be?

What is that how are they going to sell their offers? How are they priced? Then I help them with the marketing piece, the positioning, getting the right strategy in place, then I help them with the sales process. And then once they're ready to scale, I can help them scale. If they're already established, a lot of times I help them redesign their business model. I help them revamp their marketing, restructure their sales process, and then rev up their revenue.

So The reason I my program is called expert in you is because it encompasses all of those things. But the overall positioning is that I help consultants and coaches who are stuck scale to 300k to a $1,000,000 and beyond, but I help them do it with ultra high end clients. So working with a handful of clients they can scale into those numbers.

So it's very specific and very clear how I am different from a lot of people that are out there teaching funnels, teaching the volume methods. I use those as those are scale methods, but to me, they're not building, you know, building the foundation of a business. They're once you have that all going. Now you can add those things on. So you have to really put all the pieces together and try to come up with an offer that establishes you as the expert for all of that.

You don't really have to just do one thing. It's just all in how you structure the positioning of that. So an outcome, a result, a transformation, and it has to feel tangible, Jonathan. It has to be clear. People have to clearly be able to see what it means to work with you, and what result would they get from working with you?

So if it's out there in la la land, or it's abstract or it's too vague, it's not going to be compelling for people, and they're not going to feel the urgency to wanna work with you. Jonathan Green: I think that you're onto something there because I wonder if the reason people stay vague is because they're worried it won't work. Like, what if and I had it I was talking to someone recently who's going through one of my programs and, like, well, do you guarantee it'll work?

I was like, well, no. What if you don't show up? I said, I I can't I said, you know, part of it is I helped them to find clients. I was like, but what if you blow the interview? Right? I can't control that. I can get you these things, but it's that sometimes people ask for these really big promises and we get scared because, well, what if it doesn't work? Right. And we don't wanna like, we're caught in that space.

I think that's why maybe that's why people stay vague, not realizing that's the worst thing you can do because now because the way you describe what you do is so specific. Now I understand because I can go, this person fits, this person doesn't. This person fits, this person doesn't. Right? Right. And that's so important because people wanna self select. It's like if I'm watching an a video. Like, oh, we have a new exercise program.

First thing I'm looking for, is it for men or only for women? Right. because I've watched 1. I realize, oh, this is an exercise device only for women. It's for my wife, not for me. So I self select. Right? Oh, it's only for people under 40. Does it work over 40? Right? You need diff just like, now they have different vitamins. I'm over 40. You have to have the over 40 vitamin, the dad vitamin.

Like, the more specific it is, like, there's this oh, I wanna catch everyone, but, actually, the more specific you are, the more people you catch. Like, really specific. So I think that's really good and very helpful for people because there's this who do you help everyone? No. Ann Carden: No. If you're for everybody, you're for nobody. Jonathan Green: Right? Yeah.

And it's very interesting because a lot of people do And this is something that's going on with one of my businesses right now is like, oh, we have way too many calls, way too many load ticket clients. I was like, yeah. Raise the price. And that's, like, figure out who your ideal client is. They're like, oh, all of our customers, the ones who do the 3 pay are so much worse than the ones who do the single pay. They ask for more phone calls.

They ask for more coaching. They're more demanding. And that's a lesson that you have to go through, which is the person like, I had a client once. I was like, I feel like you're giving me your last $500 every month, and it's putting so much pressure on me to perform. Right. When a this process takes more than a month, then I I don't think this is a good idea. Right?

And that's a lesson I think we have to learn as consultants that, like, we're so busy chasing the pennies, we miss the dollars. Right? Like, the best clients are the ones who aren't in a financially tight situation. Like, we wanna help everyone, but when you're building a business, you do want the premium clients. And there's this thought that price is this huge barrier. But for every person who thinks the price is too high, this person's too low.

I told my price to someone on the phone last year. For my ghost writing price, she goes, oh, you must be terrible and hung up on me. And I was like, woah. I need this price again. Ann Carden: You repel client clients when your price is too low. You actually repelled them because and I've walked away from coaches that I was going to hire. for the same exact reason because I'm a high end coach and I thought, oh my gosh.

They can't be very good if this is all they're charging. So it has the opposite effect, which is why you're attracting low end buyers because a lot of times it is your pricing, your positioning, your offers. Jonathan Green: Yeah. Every time I've raised the price and I just raised the price. Like, I just doubled it a few weeks early. I was like, oh, I bet I better double it again because it's for one person like, oh my gosh. It's so high.

Another person thinks it's too low no matter what your price is. Right. It's always gonna be a lot. -- $50,000 is low ticket. It's always But I think that we get so caught up, especially because in my experience, the people who complain the most about your price are the people we're never gonna buy anyways. Exactly.

Like, the people who are the people who are the least likely to buy have the most advice for how you should just design your business, how you should sell your offers what your guarantee should be. They give you so much feedback. And I've discovered even if you change everything for them, they're not gonna buy it. It's like, well, why? we get we what is it? The squeaky wheel gets the oil.

Like, the one that's allowed as we listen to, and it's not who should be listening to. Ann Carden: So -- Can I can I speak to something real quick on the guarantee thing -- Yes. -- you just okay. I love it.

So first of all, a guarantee attracts low value clients. because they're not in the right mindset to realize that success takes invest and that you have responsibility in that game. unless I am hiring someone who is going to do those services for me and I have nothing to do with it, that's the only way they can guarantee that they can make a guarantee like that because otherwise, it fall part of the responsibility falls on that. So Do I know my programs work? Absolutely.

I have tons of proof they work. But do I know that you're gonna do the work for them to work? I don't know that. Right? And so it goes back to so one of the things I do not I if someone asked for guarantee, they immediately have thrown up a red flag that they are not my ideal client because they're not in the right mindset, and so guess what happens? The pressure is going to be on me.

It's not going to be on my process and my systems and things like that. It's going to be on me to perform you said it earlier for them and that isn't the way a a healthy consulting or coaching relationship works. Jonathan Green: Yeah. I think that sometimes we mingle a low ticket from a high ticket offer. Like, it makes sense your $27 offer or your, like, course with no coaching element.

Those have refunds or guarantees because someone's going through the training, either they see that it's viable or not. But as soon as my time is involved, Yes. Like, I learned the 1st line in my contract for ghost writing says there's no refunds no matter what. Once you wire the money, it's on because I've had people that don't show up for the interviews. I'm like, that's not default. I keep telling you once again on the phone. And I'll tell you what, nobody ever reads the rough draft.

80% of my clients, they never read the rough draft. And I say my you know, I say the top the timer stops when you have it. It's like a chess timer. Right? If you have the book and you're doing nothing for years, well, then the contract expires after a year because it's your choice. Right. And it's some of those lessons we have to learn the hard because you think when someone pays a lot of money, they're gonna read it. They don't.

Same thing with a lot of coaching. Right? How often do people pay a lot? And then they never show up or they come to one session. They don't do the work. So it's an important lesson to differentiate when you should have a guarantee for a lower ticket offer, for a volume offer, but never when it's your time. There's nothing worse. Right? You work on something, and then they just you go, oh, rewind. You're not getting paid for those hours. Yeah. Right.

I that is a huge mistake people make sometimes early on, and it always tells you that someone's not all in. It tells you that if that someone's already thinking about refunding, Ann Carden: Totally. Yes. Yes. Jonathan Green: And the same thing when I'm like, well, why is it a wire transfer? Oh, because I don't want you to wait a 100 79 days into a chargeback. Like, I don't like that stuff. Right? That's part of it is, like, I don't like that game.

People I never do chargebacks, by the way. That's not the kind of person I am. But there are certain people that do them all the time. It's part of their life. Like, oh, chargeback's like a refund, and I don't wanna work with those people. So those are the kind of things I'm exactly you're looking for So it might seem like the ideal client. But as soon as, like, oh, can I do, like, an 18 payment or split it between 4 credit cards?

All of those things do make me nervous. I don't wanna max someone out. I don't wanna max someone's credit cards. I don't want someone to be going into debt to work with me because it's more pressure. and I don't want someone exactly who's already thinking about their escape clause. Right? Like, we haven't even started, and you're already thinking about keeping it out. it means they're and I know it's fear.

Like, they're either afraid that it won't work or that you won't work with them or that kind of thing, but I think that as a consumer, right, they need to get to a point of trust before they buy what right? They need to overcome that fear before they buy rather than saying, oh, I can deal with it later. because a lot of companies have a refund policy and then want want it doesn't work. Like, how many people lost their money and all these crypto exchanges. Right?

Oh, we're -- Right. -- turned off withdrawals. I didn't know that was a thing. Like, I'd never heard of that. Your bank can go, oh, sorry. Return off the ATMs today. So I think that what you're saying is really, really valuable. Let's dive a little bit more into this core idea of selling without selling. I think that the I selling is hard if you don't believe in the product.

Like, if I had to cure for a disease and someone has the disease, it wouldn't be I wouldn't feel bad trying to convince them to take it, right, because I'm gonna fix them. So it's when we believe in what we're selling, and we know it can help the person. I think it removes so much of that fear and pressure And then maybe the price thing is like a self worth thing. Like, it takes a while to go, oh, I am worth this much money.

But, also, when people spend more, they work harder, and they're more likely to get the results. What do you think? Ann Carden: I actually wanna speak to that for just a minute because I am not a believer in the whole self worth thing, and here's why. because people buy what they believe will be the services that will help them. And the only way you come into the mix is if they like you or don't like you. Right?

They wanna work with you or don't wanna work with you. And do they believe that you are the person that can help them get the result they're looking for. So if you look at that, there's no self worth even in the price. It's about the service that you deliver. That's what you're pricing. It has nothing to do with you. What the only thing that has to do with you is can you deliver what you say you can deliver?

So I never say when I hear people say charge what you're worth, I cringe a little bit because, okay, let's face it, Jonathan. what is a human life worth? It has nothing to do with the services you're delivering. Right? And so I don't I just don't believe in that.

It's about the value and the impact of what you are selling, and how will that impact the client you're helping, how will what is the value of that to them And when you establish that, you're taken completely out of the mix, which is how people can sell half a $1,000,000 offers, $1,000,000 offers, $100,000 offers because they take I always say don't sell from your own wallet, And to me, when you talk about the host self worth thing, that's exactly what you're doing.

You're trying to sell from your wallet. Oh, they can't afford it. Oh, they won't pay this. And so when you take yourself out of the mix, like, what is this worth to their company, their organization, to them? What is this going to do for them? How is gonna change things, that becomes an entirely different pricing model. Jonathan Green: Yeah. I think this is really, really good. because the framing your framing is really good on this.

I love it because it circles back to what we said at the beginning, which is it's about the problem you solve. Yes. Right? People pay for a solution, not and when you that's the thing is when you're selling coaching, you're selling yourself, but you're selling a solution, you can't pull back from that and say, well, what is the solution worth and start stop thinking, like, what am I worth? Like, I wish, like, I'd raised my prices earlier on.

I can tell you that I had a lot more pushback my prices were a lot lower. My prices were 10% what they are now, and I got so much more pushback. Yeah. There's this, like, invisible ceiling that when you get above it, the pushback's jobs. You go, wait. I thought wait. It all disappears. Ann Carden: Yeah. And there is this thought, exactly right.

Like, If they're trying to figure out whether they're gonna pay their electric bill or pay you, who do you think is gonna win out? It's always going to be the electric bill. Right? And so you're absolutely right. When you are working it's it here's the thing. I always tell my clients. It's not about the money. It's about the audience. It's not about the money. It's about the audience.

When you work with an audience where money is not the factor, it's their time that is the factor you are in a completely different category because they don't care about price. They care about results. They care about having you hiring the right person. They care about leveraging their time and minimizing the amount of time to get something done. Those are the things they care about. They don't care about price. So people are so price conscious, again, those are going to be your low value clients.

Jonathan Green: You brought up something really interesting, which is either you people either have a lot of time or a lot of money It's never both. Right? Either your time is really valuable or you have lots of time to invest in it. And that's why, like, a lot of early people they go, oh, we have a 6 month coaching program, and I'm like, oh, gosh. I don't wanna wait 6 months for a result.

Like, it's when you start talking about time or someone's course has 600 videos All I hear is you're going back to school. It's 3 semesters like me. Right. When we're creating stuff, we often think more is better. I'll never forget, one of my mentors won't accept because I would pay ten times more if the entire 10 hour course was one page with one thing that I could implement today to make more money. Yeah. And -- Yes. -- that's always telling me that faster is better.

It's like, if you could fix your back pain in 6 months or today, which would you choose? Today. Right. And what would you pay for that? Would you pay more for that too? Yeah. We think that bigger is better or longer is better, and it's my goal as a coach or work with someone is to get you the biggest result in the shortest amount of my time possible.

So -- Right. -- that's the same thing with people, like, how many times a week are we gonna meet or how many hours is each session? It's how long is the line. You're thinking about the wrong thing. It's like, no. Let's get you the result as quickly as possible. Let's cure the problem solve the problem or bring you close to a solution. Right? Like, one of your clients, if you go, oh, I can bring you to 7 figures in 6 weeks No.

I wanted to take no one's gonna say, no. No. I wanted to take 6 months, so it feels like I've earned it. Right. No one's gonna say that. Right? They won't help. So sometimes we exec get stuck in our own heads as creators or providers thinking that we have to make it seem more arduous so that they, like, it I think it's that thing we have in Western culture. Like, the harder we work, the more the result is worth it.

Like, we have to go through the hero's journey for every project. And It just means we're working longer for no reason or running in circles when, no. Just get in the result fast. And I always think that I wanna get this done in as little of my time as possible and as little of your time as possible. Ann Carden: No. I was just gonna say, so I have 2 schools of thought on this, and some of it comes down to what you do.

So when you were talking to me earlier and you were mentioning earlier, how do people do everything they know how to do. Right? This is where so I have quick offers where if somebody just needs a tweak in their marketing strategy or in their positioning or they need to fix their offers, you know, they can do a VIP day with me and get that done. They can do a half of a VIP day.

But if they wanna really grow their business, and they wanna continue to grow their business, and they want not only that again, they don't wanna go watch a million courses, a million modules. They want in the weeds help with their thing at that moment to keep moving them forward. To me, that is a transformational offer. That is where a longer engage happens. And that's where, for me, I get to use all of my skills and my knowledge and my expertise.

I don't get to do that when I do a 1 and done. I love doing one and done, and people love them, but that's ultimately only gonna fix one thing or do one thing for them. It's not going to help them in the long run. So some of that comes down to how are your offer structured? What are you selling? What do you how so In in some cases, longer is better.

If they have big goals, then you can continue to move them towards their big goals. But if you need a year to get someone to a small goal. That's just ridiculous, and I always say money by speed. And so people with money want speed, and they will buy it. They will pay for it. Jonathan Green: I think it goes again back to the framing, which is the the value is the problem you solve. That's how you measure the value, not at how long it takes.

So -- Ann Carden: Yes. Absolutely. Certainly, Jonathan Green: My highest ticket clients are the ones who wanna spend the least amount of time talking to me. They're the ones who wanna spend a little bit of time. My very first super wealthy client when he hired me, this is 12 years ago, he said, every time I talk to you, I'm losing money.

So I'll just send you your fee every month, and then you send me one email a month with the results. when I was selling SEO services. They were a huge company. The cheapest product they had was $1,500,000. He's like, as long as you donate one stay on the next decade, we'll be fine. and we spoke that day. And then the day I stopped doing that. I changed businesses. That was it.

It was the best client ever had because he literally was selling such expensive stuff to talking to me wasn't worth this time. So he just paid every month, never even thought about it, didn't care because it was so insignificant to him. And that's really a great place to be. Like, super rich people always pay on time, They really want efficiency. They don't call you all the time with small problems. They just wanna focus on the core things.

I think what you're saying is really excellent because we're Yeah. We're afraid to raise the price because we think we'll lose our existing client base, but it turns out, no. There's every level, there's more clients. There's clients who think a $100,000 as toilet paper. Ann Carden: No. I was just gonna say my highest level clients are the least needy. Yes. Jonathan Green: Yes. I have this. I was in the nightclub in London where it's really fancy.

And this guy who owned 3 oil tankers, oil money is crazy money, and there was somebody who was, I don't like that guy. And then I come and goes, what? He goes, what that guy's bill? They go £25,000. He goes, great. Put on my credit card, throw them out.

I was like, rich people are different. like, to do like, to just make something the guy wasn't even talking to him because just to make someone you don't like leave to pay, like, a huge amount of money, it's such a different world. They pay on time and they see differently.

And, again, I know I like helping people at all different ends of the spectrum, but If you wanna build a business, you wanna work with clients who can pay, clients who don't complain, and clients who will also put in the work.

I find that the people who's just like with our new business, the people who single pay, show up to all the coaching calls, show up to all the work, put in the work where the people who split pay, Sometimes they say things like, I wanna cancel my subscription. It's not a subscription. It's a multi pay. Right? It's a different thing. It's just three payments for the thing you already bought. You already have the car.

You still have to keep making the payments even if you don't want to, but there is a difference in mindset. Now look. Sometimes I do a multi pay myself. I had I bought something this weekend. The multi pay was the same price as a single pay. I was like, well, okay. I guess I'll multi pay. It was the exact same dollars. I was like, okay. Fine. That was that's once in a while. I was like, that's crazy because usually the multi pay is more expensive.

So -- Right. -- it's been really, really good. We've done all around the block with a lot of good stuff. Why don't you bring this in for a landing kind of give us your final thoughts on some great advice for you who are thinking about getting a coaching or hiring a coach and tell people where they find you online. Tell about your website. Ann Carden: Sure.

So first of all, if you're considering getting into consulting and coaching, again, I said it earlier, your fastest path is going to be the leverage, what you already know. And if you have the financial means, work with someone who knows what they're doing. Me, for example, because it will help you just speed your success. Trying to figure things out. You'll go down a lot of rabbit holes.

You'll go down you'll get off course so many times, and you'll you might end up a year from now not having much going on, which happens a lot. I can't tell you how many coach I work with and consultants who have been at the game for 6 months or 8 months or 10 months, and they still have nothing really going on.

So if you can look at it as an investment into your future, into your business, it makes sense to work with someone because money buys speed. That's just a fact. The but the other piece of that is it's really hard to do the all of this for yourself. It's hard to get your positioning. Right? It's hard to figure out what your real value is and how to package that and take that to market. It is really hard to do all of these things for yourself.

I spent a lot of years and a lot of money learning how to help people do this. And I will tell you, I struggled finding somebody who knew what they were doing. for very long and spent a fortune in this industry trying to figure all of these things out. So there's a lot of one ponies out there who know how to do one thing.

Oh, build a Facebook group, but they don't really care if those are even your clients or if they even have a need for for what you want to do. And so all of those things are part of. Don't buy into the 1 trick pony solutions.

You need someone who can take an overall look at what you know how to do and what your expertise is and help you really build a viable model and business around that and put the right mark in strategies and sales process into place. Because, look, a top level CEO is never going to hang out in a Facebook group. So if you're trying to do that, you're going to struggle. And so and but this is the stuff that's being taught out there.

It's just there's just so much stuff that is not helping coaches and consultants. It's not serving the market. So my soapbox there a little bit, but I went I was that person that went down all of those rabbit holes and invested in a lot of things that did not move in move the needle or get me what I wanted. So that would be my that would be my overall advice. As far as getting a hold of me, I am on LinkedIn.

I am on Facebook, but and I have a YouTube channel, but you can go to acarden.com and book a call with me if you wanna talk to me about helping you in your business, and you're serious about investing in your own success. or you can go to my website at analcarden.com. And I have a lot of free resources on there as well. Jonathan Green: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here. I know our audience is gonna love it.

They always love hearing from successful ladies, so I know this is gonna be an absolute hit. Thank you so much for being here today. Ann Carden: Thank you, Jonathan. Thank you for having me. Announcer: Thank you for listening to the Survey Master podcast. Get a free copy of my best seller, fire your boss right now on Amazon. Go to surveymaster.com, or a slash get fire or just search FireBoss on Amazon. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of the Serve No Master podcast.

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